Gyms profiting off team and required parent involvement? Business discussion

[Deleted member D3987]

Well all I can say is the last 3 posta, Dunno, NGL, & pro yoy all BOGGLE my mind. You must have not read my entire posts on the subject with the responses given.. Maybe it it a education thing. I have a Masters in Business so maybe my points are going over peoples heads..

I know gym owners very well also. I never said the team money carries a gym. IT IS A STEADY INCOME to help pay the bills. I responded to another post about teams & rec classes. The point was obviousley over your head

I said i am not the only one who feels this way in my posts, if you read them. My wife came accross this post (she is a member) so I chimmed in.. I am not walking around bad mouthing, spewing hate or being a gluten for punishment so Dunno my points have gone over your head also (maybe due to you being a gym owner???)
Ec is the only one that understood my valid argument.

NGL
There is no gym that is open & operating that IS NOT making a profit be it small or large. That is basic business 101. If you are trying to demonstate that holding a meet with parents volunteering & donating items is the only way a gym makes money or GETS money for things in the gym is just plain erroneous. What ever your gym is TELLING you about how they use the profits is great.

In house meets are 95% for the gym to get its name out there. You all said it one way or another "hold a good meet & people will want to come back"! People comming back means MORE MONEY FOR THE GYM, (especially when they are not paying anything for the meet) I can't say how big your gym is but mine is big with lots of people. We just stated holding meets. Prior to holding meets they were doing just fine. Our equipment is used plenty over the years & they are not buying equipment every time you turn around & the equipment is all good. maybe your gym is feels it necessary to purchase equipment every chance they get. I can't speak for them.

Again if you read my posts you SHOULD have acquired where I am coming from!!!! & DUNNO my daughter is not looking to "GYM HOP" at this stage in her career. As a parent I listen to my children rather then always tell them what they are going to due. SHe has a say in the matter. & god bless her because she feels the same way as I do. She gets it!!!

You know I have studied the behaviour of people in societies & it was very interesting to find that we as people (the majority not all, it was a universal study) are similar to cattle. If you can get one cow to move all the others will follow without due regard. I was amazed at the simple analogy because it was so TRUE.
The human brain is capable of astonishing achievements yet when we are placed in positions that might cause us to follow suit "we" revert back to the most primitive forms.
Look around you will witness it everyday..

To all, may you live your life as you want. May trouble never find you but if it does don't be affraid to stand up for what you believe in! My intention was never to make anyone agree with me. it was to question a wrong that came into my life.
I am signing out of this post to all much respect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

well now...if a cow could achieve a Masters Degree...would it have learned about Webster's Dictionary and its use for spelling as an academic requirement in the quest for its 1st Bachelor's Degree? again, your now presumptious audacity as to questioning the education/IQ backgrounds of the other posters is palpable and lacking class. this shows your utter disdain for other peoples opinions and a paucity of knowledge in regards to the issues at hand.


as for the sentence in bold and underlined...you could not be more wrong.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Perhaps you have forgotten your Economics curriculum.

You argued that you're being forced to work for free instead of paying a fee. You're not working for free if it gets you out of the fee. You're working at the effective hourly rate given by the alternate fee divided by the number of volunteering hours. Your time is valuable and has its own opportunity cost (see next point).

You seem opposed to the gym giving you a choice between volunteering or paying a fee. Not everyone has the same opportunity cost to their time, so the gym is being helpful by allowing different members to make different choices based on their own indifference curve.

You argue that a low margin service is a steady income rather than recognizing the opportunity cost of the coaches working team practice is that they're not available for the higher margin recreational classes. You could potentially argue that there is prestige to operating a competitive team and the gym's performance at meets serves as marketing and drives new customers, but that would be difficult to effectively quantify and would represent an unknown risk to the gym. It's more likely that the gym owner's marginal utility from offering a competitive team exceeds the loss of profit from allocating coaches to it over the rec program.

OMG!!! The Econ 101 post of the year!! Thesis/Dissertation/Argument presented and GRANTED!!!

 

[bribri514]

I don't have much to add that dunno, NGL, Goofy, etc. haven't already said. Except with all this emphasis on "business 101" and even saying "no gym out there doesn't turn a big or small profit", you're completely overlooking gymnastics is a sport, particularly aimed at children of all ages and levels. I competed for our municipal rec district (on the USAG team) and my niece competes for the YMCA. Those are both non-profit groups. You keep comparing gymnastics to retail and other businesses, but do you ever hear about a non-profit clothing store? Yes some gyms are "for profit" but the main point of a gym is to provide a community with gymnastics. Yeah you want to make a living but only a handful of gyms are profitable in a business standpoint. You're an absolute idiot if you go into owning a gym to make money and if you think you can use some Harvard School of Business model to make loads you're probably in it for the wrong reasons. And if you wanted to go in with consultants and other business people to take over existing gyms, I guarantee everyone would quit because the whole purpose of being gymnastics would be lost.

 

[bribri514]

Just stopping in to point out that the OP is no longer a member here and this thread is old...

Carry on, the debate is interesting.

When this first got brought back up by someone random I was thinking about saying something but then it went off in this direction. I'm going to try to put this discussion on a new thread.

Also, dunno's right. Barney, please use proper spelling and punctuation. We all make typos, but for example, 'ur' is not acceptable on this forum. We hold our teenage gymnasts to a higher level than that so I'm sure a very successful, educated business person as yourself can manage to use proper English.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Perhaps you have forgotten your Economics curriculum.

You argued that you're being forced to work for free instead of paying a fee. You're not working for free if it gets you out of the fee. You're working at the effective hourly rate given by the alternate fee divided by the number of volunteering hours. Your time is valuable and has its own opportunity cost (see next point).

You seem opposed to the gym giving you a choice between volunteering or paying a fee. Not everyone has the same opportunity cost to their time, so the gym is being helpful by allowing different members to make different choices based on their own indifference curve.

You argue that a low margin service is a steady income rather than recognizing the opportunity cost of the coaches working team practice is that they're not available for the higher margin recreational classes. You could potentially argue that there is prestige to operating a competitive team and the gym's performance at meets serves as marketing and drives new customers, but that would be difficult to effectively quantify and would represent an unknown risk to the gym. It's more likely that the gym owner's marginal utility from offering a competitive team exceeds the loss of profit from allocating coaches to it over the rec program.

Wallinbl, your arguement is so beautifully rational it almost made me cry. And it made me want to go back to school and study economics (Hey - and if I go back to school, maybe certain posters arguements wil no longer go over my head!!)

 

[MaryA]

1st of all, I think that, if your gym isn't being upfront about where the funds from the meet go, I think it's within your rights to ask. I seriously doubt they're going to buy your head coach a new BMW, but hey, you never know. Second of all, if you would rather pay a little more a month than pay a 1x fee of $100, then ask if you can pay the opt-out money in monthly installments. Or, if they don't want to do that, put a little bit aside every month so it's not cutting into your regular monthly budget when these payments roll around. Problem solved.

However, not to open up a whole new can of worms here, but DD is on a brand-new team. There has been much discussion on this site about what is legal and illegal as far as fundraising (individual accounts, etc.) and we made every effort to set up our booster club to be 100% legal, and one of the things that came to light is that we can't REQUIRE that anyone pay an "opt-out" fee. We can HAVE an "opt-out" fee, we can ENCOURAGE that people pay it, but as a nonprofit organization, we can't REQUIRE it. We also can't have required dues or anything like that. I'm not sure how the "profit" from most meets is routed... through the gym itself or through its booster club? We haven't hosted our own meet yet, but it's being discussed.

 

[barney66]

Of course they are making a profit Barney, just not off team. They are making a profit off their huge rec program, cheer and the daycare they run during the day. You can have as many business degrees as you want (I actually have one too), but it doesn't change the fact that having a team is not profitable for most gyms. I'm sure there are some gyms that do make money off team. The majority don't. They have to make profit elsewhere to stay open and have a team.

Maybe with your advanced business degrees you should hold a business seminar to teach owners how to make money off having a team. The majority have not figured it out yet. All the gyms I know could not survive without rec. It's probably because they are just lowly gym owners with no real sense or education. They just love gymnastics and never took the time to properly learn anything about business. Most of them can barely comprehend the written word.

I simply could not resist a reply to this (tho I did say I am signing off) NGL & some of you that responded are hypocrites. I just found some post's in another thread "in house meets" (put that in the search tab & refresh your memories) where YOU POST YOUR DISATISFACTION about the REQUIRED work.. HERE NGL does this jog your memory?????

1. 
   Originally Posted by dancengym
   
2. I just don't understand how and why gyms do this. Where does the money go? I know it does not go to new equipment in our gym. Is our tuition not enough? Is this purely a money maker or is it necessary? Sounds like most parents feel it is unfair. So, why is it still going on. There has to be a logical explanation for gyms to warrant or require this of its parents.
   
   THIS IS UR RESPONSE NGL

• I agree. I'd be perfectly happy to donate to the concessions if the booster club could keep those profits. The gym didn't have to buy the stuff, so why do they get the profits? If they want the profits they should guy the stuff themsevles.
  
  DD's gym is also having a fundraiser to buy new equipment. Many of the parents are really upset about it. Isn't equipment a business expense? DD wasn't at the gym yet when the fundraiser was presented to the parents in a meeting, but I heard that they were told everyone must participate. Nobody really had a problem with that. Then when it actually came time to fundraise they set a limit of how many things you had to sell and you had to prepay for those items. I don't mind selling and I don't even mind selling a certain number of things or paying for the rest, but I don't like having to prepay for those items. Did I mention it was just a few days after Xmas when everyone is completely broke? I'd rather them just raise my tuition. Did I mention the items are pretty much something nobody wants except for your immediate family? If you don't know my DD and really like her, you wouldn't want one.

WOW,, THAT SOUNDS A LOT LIKE WHERE I AM COMING FROM!!!!! Why the sudden change in your tune?? That post was 1 year ago. Have the coachs or other parents CONVINCED you in that year to FOLLOW SUIT???????? That thread SUBSTANTIATES my argument and no matter what people say to approve of a gyms handling of meets is wrong..
WHO cares what a gym makes money on, Teams REC, babysitting, IT IS NOT THE POINT & I DO NOT CARE. The point is a gym using parents in order to hold a meet & not sharing with the parent because when you do that a meet becomes another source of revenue for you!!!!!!! PEOPLE can barley get by as you said in your old post. Now I am expected to lose money from taking off so I can work your event. if you can do that great i have no problem with you but I CAN NOT> MY MORTGAGE & BILLS ARE MORE IMPORTANT TO ME. My daughters coach could care less about my bills!!!!!!!!!
Jesus how is that so hard to understand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My intention was not to be condescending with my education comment. If it was taken that way i appologise to anyone that it offended but in life this is sometimes the reason why people do not get the point of another persons comment.
Many here are responding to my post out of passion. Something that they feel strong about But fail to look at the facts! That thread "in house mees" proves that I am not the only one who believes this is not right..
I have tried to back up my opinion with facts & it just went right through one ear & out the other! When I post something & most try to explain why i am wrong or have to understand what a gym has to endure to be in BUSINESS & others do the same thing THEN i find older post's that have my same argument HOW can anyone any of you be taken serious?????

GYMMOM if you are way up in north NJ them we are. & if so you know many feel as i do but are affraid to approach the owner for fear of them taking it out on our children! I am not familiar with any email nor is my wife.
YOu are speaking from the heart & not from a business standpoint. I am not judging you or belittling mearly backing up my previous statement. You can present it however you like & i respect your point. Your coaches passion is not a parents dilemma. IT IS THE GYMS! When you open a business it is your problem noone elses. If your coaches decided to go into debt that is their business choice. DO not think for one second that they do not have a business plan that shows how to make as much money as they can in order to get out of debt (FREE WOKERS FREE ITEMS) They would never get a loan if they did not show how the business will be profitable, BUSINESS 101!!!
It is not a parents predicament to get them out of debt. Am I to start having my employee's family work or volunteer time for me or be subjected to a fine or FEE as WALINBL tries to explain but falls way short (WOW SOME CHOICE WALINBL, DO THIS OR PAY THAT because i am in a business & need to pay my bills) because i chose to expand & go into debt??
You say your gym offers you things well not mine. What is you fee or FINE to not participate in FREE LABOR???? What is your credit?? Are you receiving all the money brought in from the meet after the judges are paid & fees for usga or is your coach/gym splitting the money with you????
If a gym is taking any money from parents time & donations & not giving it to the parents or to the gymnasts (in parties etc) then we are being taken fool's!!!!!

To have your daughter compete at her gym is fne. All of your reasons are understood but it does not REFUTE my argument>

much repsect

Again read the older posts apparently I am not the 1st to feel this way

 

[barney66]

1st of all, I think that, if your gym isn't being upfront about where the funds from the meet go, I think it's within your rights to ask. I seriously doubt they're going to buy your head coach a new BMW, but hey, you never know. Second of all, if you would rather pay a little more a month than pay a 1x fee of $100, then ask if you can pay the opt-out money in monthly installments. Or, if they don't want to do that, put a little bit aside every month so it's not cutting into your regular monthly budget when these payments roll around. Problem solved.

However, not to open up a whole new can of worms here, but DD is on a brand-new team. There has been much discussion on this site about what is legal and illegal as far as fundraising (individual accounts, etc.) and we made every effort to set up our booster club to be 100% legal, and one of the things that came to light is that we can't REQUIRE that anyone pay an "opt-out" fee. We can HAVE an "opt-out" fee, we can ENCOURAGE that people pay it, but as a nonprofit organization, we can't REQUIRE it. We also can't have required dues or anything like that. I'm not sure how the "profit" from most meets is routed... through the gym itself or through its booster club? We haven't hosted our own meet yet, but it's being discussed.

Thank you Mary for a valid reply. The only problem i have with your post is that my point is I am not going to pay anything that is associated with a gym holding a meet unless it is split amongst the parent or gymnast so your 1st point is not an option.

Your 2nd point is 100% on the mark. Being told ypou have to PAY for an OPT OUT is wrong!! I am not against working toward a solution such as your gym has in place. As i mentioned people at my gym are affraid to come forward so they just follow what others do!! Remember also some parents are nuts when it comes to their kids & sports, you must know what i mean so I do not want to cause any animositytoward eachother!! thanks for your input

 

[gymcoach26]

We get nothing. We have to pay for every party that is held at the gym for the kids, along with an end of year Banquet if they have it. There is nothing shared or given back to the kids/ families. There is no make up classes for any kids that miss for any reasons meets or otherwise. Oh wait a minute you can go to a make up class but you have to pay $25 for 2hrs ((see all business).
we have to pay all of our gym fees, assesments etc. in 2 payments. there is no money put aside to offset any fees we pay..
We are a big well known gym ( I am not trying to name bash) Our tuition is higher than most gyms. The coaches are very impersonal. They have the all business attitude. So I hope that paints a clearer picture. I am not optimistic at all. I feel very strong about my position on this as i have pointed out. I really believe deep down in my heart it is wrong. thanks again ,, much respect

Just like you have a CHOICE to volunteer or pay the buy out you also have a choice of what gym you go to. If you are unhappy with your gym it is your CHOICE to stay or leave.

 

[barney66]

Wallinbl, your arguement is so beautifully rational it almost made me cry. And it made me want to go back to school and study economics (Hey - and if I go back to school, maybe certain posters arguements wil no longer go over my head!!)

well maybe you should because he is not refuting my argument. he is mearly refraising points & giving all the pitfalls/ risks of owning your own business which is not a parents problem.

"NOT WOKING FOR FREE IF IT GETS YOU OUT OF A FEE" Are you serious??? If i am simply "working" at the effectively hourly rate which was established to be $100 in my case then THAT IS WHAT MY REIMBERSMENT should be as you so eloquently pointed out. Yet I get nothing wow hat is some choice. Thank you so much coach!!!

Prestige in having a competive team, marketing your gym, unknown risks, That is called "OWNING YOUR OWN BUSINESS" You do not do something if it will not benefit you or your gym. It is called a business plan. You should know all the risks owning your own business & how to work thru them.. Using parents for your benifit should not be included in your business plan!!!

Your post only pointed out what owning your own business is about. It did not refute my argument!!

Hey wandrew try not to be so sensitive over something that is flamboyant but does not offer any substance to an argument!!

 

[barney66]

When this first got brought back up by someone random I was thinking about saying something but then it went off in this direction. I'm going to try to put this discussion on a new thread.

Also, dunno's right. Barney, please use proper spelling and punctuation. We all make typos, but for example, 'ur' is not acceptable on this forum. We hold our teenage gymnasts to a higher level than that so I'm sure a very successful, educated business person as yourself can manage to use proper English.

Well I do apologize for any spelling, punctuation mistakes or any "SLANG" terminology used that is not "Proper" on this board. If i offended anyone with my blunders please accept my sincere apologies.
I was unaware of the double standard due to the fact that as I read many post's I see many grammatic errors that are not brought to the poster's attention. I see that I am being held to a different standard so I will try my best to comply with the powers that be on this site

 

[nevertooold]

If you are unhappy with your gym it is your CHOICE to stay or leave.

If the gym owners get wind of this online conversation they may make their own CHOICE about whether this family stays at their gym or not. Family's have been removed for less. I know that "publically disparaging" the gym, owners, or coaches is grounds for dismissal from many teams. If you have a personal issue take it to the source, publically blasting the gym doesn't usually end well for the blaster.

As said in a previous post, it's the gym owners "ball" so if you want to play you have to play by their rules. That's business.

 

[MaryA]

Thank you Mary for a valid reply. The only problem i have with your post is that my point is I am not going to pay anything that is associated with a gym holding a meet unless it is split amongst the parent or gymnast so your 1st point is not an option.

But it IS split between the parents, because each family is required to either participate (contribute their time) or pay (contribute their money).

 

[barney66]

well now...if a cow could achieve a Masters Degree...would it have learned about Webster's Dictionary and its use for spelling as an academic requirement in the quest for its 1st Bachelor's Degree? again, your now presumptious audacity as to questioning the education/IQ backgrounds of the other posters is palpable and lacking class. this shows your utter disdain for other peoples opinions and a paucity of knowledge in regards to the issues at hand.
as for the sentence in bold and underlined...you could not be more wrong.

DUNNO

If a typo is what you came out with in my post I have no reply to dunno. You once again missed the entire meaning of my statement. FYI if that is ok to use, an opinion backed up by passion or the heart has no bearing in my argument!


No my statement is not wrong.. You will not be opened much longer if you are not making a profit. You will not be eating any food or buying clothes or gas for your car or paying for the bus or for your housing or for your phone etc.. See my point??? Any profit is a profit. It does not matter how it is used or what you want to call it your gym is making some profit big or small!!!!

 

[wandrewsjr]

OK..OK..I give..all the CAPITALIZATION, boldface, underlining and exclamations!!!!!!!!!!!!!! are hurting my eyes! You win!

But, on a serious note, why do you continue to patronize a business whose practices you so vehemently disagree with? You are voluntarily handing over, likely, several thousand dollars a year to this business. Why do you choose to give so much support to a private business that you feel does something so wrong?

 

[thefellowsmom]

Wow, coming to this late and I have no desire to jump in the middle of this bee's nest, but we were just having this discussion last week at the gym (coaches and parents) and so I can't resist. I hope I don't regret it

It is difficult to get parents to want to donate their time to put on the meet. Many of them don't want to do it. Personally, I think this is a little sad. Contributing to the meet makes me feel like part of my gym community and my dd loves that I am participating in something she is so passionate about. But, I am a level 4 parent and have not reached that jaded veteran stage yet.

There are many parents at our gym that fall into that category. They have been at this for so long and their kids are at a higher level and their sacrifice is greater and many of them feel that they have don't have to participate in this way anymore or don't feel that the gym deserves their time after years of dealing with the perpetual tension between gym and paretn. But, we have made a choice to allow our children to pursue this sport with all of its benefits and joys and horrid communication and pain in the *** moments.

Personally, I am pretty pissed off that pushy parents are ruining it for the rest of it. I would love to feel like I could get some straight talk about my gymmie. That I could talk to the owner about issues I have without feeling like it will negatively impact my gymmie. But no, angry bitter or pushy and overzealous parents have the coaches and owners running scared and the whole thing makes me a little sick to my stomach. Ooh, sorry. I digress.

My point on this post is we were talking about how to get parents to volunteer at the meet as it is always hard to put on a great meet when you can't depend on people to show up when they say they will or do what is asked of them.

Someone brought up a great point I thought. In other sports the parents are fully expected to be an active part of all kinds of things, not just one home meet a year. But every home game, race, meet, match whatever. The parents are out there running everything. And half the time their they are the coach too.

They don't do this to get their fair cut or to reduce their fees. They don't even usually complain about it, but rather fight over who get's to do more. They do it because they love and support their children in their sport.

Yes, those may be less expensive sports and may not be run by private organizations (although the woman that was saying this was speaking of a private sports club her other dd is involved with), but just by looking at the cars in the gym parking lot, I can pretty much guarantee that no one is getting rich off of the private gymnastics club. Our owner is known to run a successful and profitable gym, which in our area is actually very unusual. Most gyms run at a loss a vast majority of the time. But even he drives an old beater. No one is getting rich on your time here folks.

I can see how the either volunteer or pay choice can feel like an ultimatum, but that is something you are putting on top of it. It is what it is and unless they dropped it on without warning, then you knew it was coming. You may not be alone in your feelings, but I would put my money on the fact that the gym's intention is not to "get you" and many other parents feel more like I do.

Is the system perfect? no, absolutely not. I am frustrated regularly and am very close to writing my own "talk me down please" post here. But, I love my kid and she loves gymnastics so I can't wait to support her in it in anyway I can and if that means I volunteer my time so our club can put on a great meet that people will want to come back to and may buy our team a new piece of equipment, then I will do it with a smile on my face.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

OK..OK..I give..all the CAPITALIZATION, boldface, underlining and exclamations!!!!!!!!!!!!!! are hurting my eyes! You win!

But, on a serious note, why do you continue to patronize a business whose practices you so vehemently disagree with? You are voluntarily handing over, likely, several thousand dollars a year to this business. Why do you choose to give so much support to a private business that you feel does something so wrong?

i'd like to know this also. maybe he should be removed from this gym to save him from himself. those that have been here longer than me know how long i've been in gymnastics and owned clubs. i don't recall someone so bitter and disgruntled. like i said, his thoughts/feelings/opinions are palpable.

and it's hard to fathom that a parent's involvement in 1 program for 9 years has netted this much animosity and disdain. whew...

 

[Esoteric]

Barney, I wonder if you have a volunteer hour exchange program? I just signed up for my volunteer hours for our last home meet of the season. I am doing 2 hours of set-up on Friday, not volunteering Saturday, then Sunday 1st session I am "announcing" and second session I am inputting floor score. These hours, (10,) in addition to the hours previously accumulated from our other two home meets puts me over my required quota, so I am able to "gift" my surplus hours to a family that is deficient. I can choose whoever I want, or I can just put the time into the "kitty" to be randomly distributed via a lottery method. I like to select myself and I am sure to gift to a POSITIVE and supportive family that has made an effort, but due to circumstances beyond their control have come up short.
Perhaps there is a family at your gym that has meet their requirements that might be willing to arrange a barter/trade for yours? Surely you have something to offer. Last year a family was so appreciative that the mom made fancy scrunchies that coordinated perfectly with the competition leos and looked nicer than the ones provided by the leo manufacturer. Another family brought in homemade goodies at the next parent meeting to show their appreciation. In this sport, as well as in life, attitude is everything. For the athletes, coaches and parents alike. A good attitude brings good results. Maybe you need to turn that frown upside down and try to find the silver lining- or create a silver lining if you're having difficulties locating one.

 

[barney66]

But it IS split between the parents, because each family is required to either participate (contribute their time) or pay (contribute their money).

Mary if i have to pay what is that money being used for?? My replacement? So the gym has to pay someone else to fill my position?? But If I do it I am not entitled to what the gym would pay for my replacement (their OPT OUT FEE) or a portion?? Do you see my point??

 

[bribri514]

Well I do apologize for any spelling, punctuation mistakes or any "SLANG" terminology used that is not "Proper" on this board. If i offended anyone with my blunders please accept my sincere apologies.
I was unaware of the double standard due to the fact that as I read many post's I see many grammatic errors that are not brought to the poster's attention. I see that I am being held to a different standard so I will try my best to comply with the powers that be on this site

There is no double standard. All the mods on the board do our best to limit "text speak" and slang. Bog the admin redid a title and edited multiple posts in the last week alone. We're always looking for new mods if you want to help clean up the board. We all have lives (I know shocking!) And there's LOTS of posts here. But we try and are indiscriminate to who is posting. Though to be honest everyone else who uses text speak (90% ish are teenagers here id say); none of them base their argument on their superior intellect and education. Just an observation.

(Akk this said my first post was as a member my second was as a mod, we try to be impartial when we're moding)