Parents Level 6 and 7 question

[Ali'sMom]

As I already spoke to, there may be a min-max range regarding the deduction.

JMO, it wouldn't surprise me, on things where there are a min-max, oh lets say for the sake of argument .3-0.5, That the same skill/move, a judge might take 0.3 in L6 yet take 0.5 in L7.

It is possible. And it wouldn't surprise me.

Still totally depends on the judges. We've been to L6 meets where they obviously took max deductions, and other L6 meets where they took the min. But then they did it for L7 also.

 

[duyetanh]

Ot...I hate the shades of grey in the scoring. The min/max stuff drives me crazy!

 

[3rd_time_around]

But OP was asking about a a L7 floor routine done for L6, specifically as the example. If the routine met the L7 requirements, it would also meet the L6 requirements.
So, the question is... Would a L6 floor routine with only A and B skills that meets L7 requirements earning a 9.500 in L6 earn about the same score if competed for L7. ... And, for giggles, would a L7 floor routine that earned a 9.500 and did not have any L6 restrictions earn the same if done in L6?

Not necessarily. Level requirements are different, they don't build on the lower level, like in compulsories. Level 6 floor has salto requirements that level 7 does not have. Therefore, a level 7 routine that meets all the acro skills with flight requirements for level 7 wouldn't necessarily fulfil the level 6 salto requirements. Consequently, the level 7 routine performed at level 6 would have a 9.0-9.5 Sart Value. And no, level 6 routines are not given the benefit of the doubt or judged easier than level 7 routines. Level 6 has lower VP requirements, therefore easier to have a 10.0 start value and meet all Special requirements.

 

[Flicfliclay]

Benefited in what way? With higher scores? More medals?

She skipped level 6. So no not for higher scores or more medals. Just trying to figure out if having done level 6 it would be beneficial for her before doing level 7.

 

[Flicfliclay]

Some gymnasts benefit from another year of competitive experience before moving into the upper optional levels. Many gyms (ours included) don't compete L6 at all, so if that additional year is needed, they either repeat L5 or L7. You wind up at the same place...just a little different path.

As for the pros to L6 -- it's a little bit less of a pressure cooker and can provide some good competition experience to build confidence and add skills as you get them.

Great answer

 

[Deleted member 18037]

She skipped level 6. So no not for higher scores or more medals. Just trying to figure out if having done level 6 it would be beneficial for her before doing level 7.

It would buy time to strengthen L7 skills and improve.

 

[Flicfliclay]

This is all hypothetical since I am just the parent and not the coach and therefore have no say or would I ever interfere in what the coaches think. I am merely trying to educate myself. And my daughter has asked why girls are doing level 7 routines in level 6. My answer was because that's what their coaches want them to do.. My daughter worked her booty off to mandate 5 and skip level 6 in order to compete 7, so that alone I'm super proud of!

 

[raenndrops]

Not necessarily. Level requirements are different, they don't build on the lower level, like in compulsories. Level 6 floor has salto requirements that level 7 does not have. Therefore, a level 7 routine that meets all the acro skills with flight requirements for level 7 wouldn't necessarily fulfil the level 6 salto requirements. Consequently, the level 7 routine performed at level 6 would have a 9.0-9.5 Sart Value. And no, level 6 routines are not given the benefit of the doubt or judged easier than level 7 routines. Level 6 has lower VP requirements, therefore easier to have a 10.0 start value and meet all Special requirements.

Level 6 SR1: Acro series with a minimum of 3 directly connected flight or non-flight acro elements (Met by Level 7 SR1: Acro series with a minimum of 3 flight elements including a Back layout to two feet.
Level 6 SR2: One salto or aerial acro element (bad, fwd, sad), isolated or in a 2nd series (Met by Level 7 SR2: A direct connection of two or more forward acro elements with flight - one must be a salto or aerial.
Level 6 SR3: Dance Passage with a minimum of 2 different Group elements, directly or indirectly connected, - one a LEAP with 180º cross or side split (Met by Level 7 SR3: Dance Passage with a minimum of 2 different Group elements, directly or indirectly connected, - one a LEAP with 180º cross or side split). THESE ARE EXACTLY THE SAME.
Level 6 SR4: Minimum of 360º turn on one foot - may be isolated or in a series (Met by Level 7 SR4: Minimum of 360º turn on one foot - may be isolated or in a series). THESE ARE EXACTLY THE SAME.

How would the L7 routine done at L6 only be worth 9.0-9.5 Start Value???

 

[3rd_time_around]

Level 6 SR1: Acro series with a minimum of 3 directly connected flight or non-flight acro elements (Met by Level 7 SR1: Acro series with a minimum of 3 flight elements including a Back layout to two feet.
Level 6 SR2: One salto or aerial acro element (bad, fwd, sad), isolated or in a 2nd series (Met by Level 7 SR2: A direct connection of two or more forward acro elements with flight - one must be a salto or aerial.
Level 6 SR3: Dance Passage with a minimum of 2 different Group elements, directly or indirectly connected, - one a LEAP with 180º cross or side split (Met by Level 7 SR3: Dance Passage with a minimum of 2 different Group elements, directly or indirectly connected, - one a LEAP with 180º cross or side split). THESE ARE EXACTLY THE SAME.
Level 6 SR4: Minimum of 360º turn on one foot - may be isolated or in a series (Met by Level 7 SR4: Minimum of 360º turn on one foot - may be isolated or in a series). THESE ARE EXACTLY THE SAME.

How would the L7 routine done at L6 only be worth 9.0-9.5 Start Value???

It came up at a meet, and the salto element in#2 was not met. It can happen

 

[raenndrops]

It came up at a meet, and the salto element in#2 was not met. It can happen

If the salto from #2 was not met, then the gymnast didn't meet SR #1 for Level 7 that requires a Back layout OR they didn't meet SR #2 from Level 7 that requires a front salto or aerial in a 2 skill series. Therefore, it did not meet the L7 requirements either.

 

[Flicfliclay]

If the salto from #2 was not met, then the gymnast didn't meet SR #1 for Level 7 that requires a Back layout OR they didn't meet SR #2 from Level 7 that requires a front salto or aerial in a 2 skill series. Therefore, it did not meet the L7 requirements either.

Thank goodness I'm not a choreographer or a coach! lol this stuff is confusing!

 

[beachgirl]

As I already spoke to, there may be a min-max range regarding the deduction.

JMO, it wouldn't surprise me, on things where there are a min-max, oh lets say for the sake of argument .3-0.5, That the same skill/move, a judge might take 0.3 in L6 yet take 0.5 in L7.

It is possible. And it wouldn't surprise me.

I just wouldn't want you to confuse the OP unless you really know what you are talking about, for example you are a coach, judge, gym owner or have had a child compete at the optional level.

 

[raenndrops]

Thank goodness I'm not a choreographer or a coach! lol this stuff is confusing!

I am a choreographer in addition to everything else I do, lol.
We have 5 level 6 gymnasts on our team this season. 4 are considering level 7 next year and have asked what they'd need to make the jump. I already had a comparison chart that I made, so it was easy.
Until this season, we have had Level 7s since I started with team.
I also am the Xcel guru for our gym. Now, a 9.5 on a Platinum BEAM routine may not score as high at Gold, depending on the acro choice... But that is a different situation from your original question.

 

[QueenBee]

After years of watching gymnastics, the one thing I believe with judges is that they judge the routine they see. At some meets, it will feel like judges are taking every possible deduction, at others gymnasts will receive scores you know they won't see again same season. But unless you have the same judges on the same event at every meet - you cannot and should not try to figure out why Susie got a 8.75 on floor last week and a 9.2 this week. Because each judge is judging the routine they see.

This isn't a product of 'level', or taking the minimum versus maximum deduction. I think this is a function of each level having its own requirements and deductions and each judge having their own 'special' bugaboos when working within the judging system. After 5 years of competing in one region - there are some judges whose scoring I am pretty familiar with at this point. I 'know' what deductions those judges hit hard, and what deductions they don't because I have watched countless routines at level 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 (as well as fewer but many) routines at Level 9 and 10.

Some judges really hit hard on bent legs or lack of pointed toes. Some seem to stress turns or leaps. It just depends on what specific thing catches that judge's eye particularly within a routine or event. From watching/listening to judges work over the years working at meets - it is as equally common for 2 judges to reach the exact same score watching the same routine...but having 'caught' different deductions for the routine as it is for judges to be 0.4 points or more off from one another and again hearing them talk about the different deductions they each saw.

 

[my4buffaloes]

After years of watching gymnastics, the one thing I believe with judges is that they judge the routine they see. At some meets, it will feel like judges are taking every possible deduction, at others gymnasts will receive scores you know they won't see again same season. But unless you have the same judges on the same event at every meet - you cannot and should not try to figure out why Susie got a 8.75 on floor last week and a 9.2 this week. Because each judge is judging the routine they see.

This isn't a product of 'level', or taking the minimum versus maximum deduction. I think this is a function of each level having its own requirements and deductions and each judge having their own 'special' bugaboos when working within the judging system. After 5 years of competing in one region - there are some judges whose scoring I am pretty familiar with at this point. I 'know' what deductions those judges hit hard, and what deductions they don't because I have watched countless routines at level 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 (as well as fewer but many) routines at Level 9 and 10.

Some judges really hit hard on bent legs or lack of pointed toes. Some seem to stress turns or leaps. It just depends on what specific thing catches that judge's eye particularly within a routine or event. From watching/listening to judges work over the years working at meets - it is as equally common for 2 judges to reach the exact same score watching the same routine...but having 'caught' different deductions for the routine as it is for judges to be 0.4 points or more off from one another and again hearing them talk about the different deductions they each saw.

THIS! I tried to type up a long response neatly summarizing this and realized at the end that I wasn't clear so erased the whole thing. LOL Thank you for saying exactly what I wanted to say, but couldn't but together right after a long day at work.

 

[sevenatenine2]

It can happen and probably does. There are min max deductions for things like height and insufficent splits.
Making it entirely possible for the exact same move to get a different deduction with different judges. And even the same judge on different levels. It is possible. That was the question, is it possible. The answer is yes.

I am just a parent but even I would expect a less "perfect" say split degree at a l6, then l7, moving to l8 and so on. Y the time a kid gets to L9 or 10, sure that split better be 180 and a cast HS vertical. At 6 there likely more grace given.

It is reasonable to expect the judges to as well. Yes it's possible. And I have no doubt it happens.

https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/Rules/J.O. Code of Points/appndx10_BarTechnique2013.pdf

I think the min/max deductions are taking on the severity of whatever is being deducted versus what's expected at a certain level. So, for height, for example.......if it was pretty good, but not great, they may take the minimum deduction. If it was scary low, you'd take the max.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I just wouldn't want you to confuse the OP unless you really know what you are talking about, for example you are a coach, judge, gym owner or have had a child compete at the optional level.

Wow, cause the only coaches, judges and owner ever share opinions around here. Nearly snorted my coffee. rofl.

The question was is it possible. I stand by the answer yes.

And with one more freaking compulsory meet, will I will have finally reached the parent base camp of Mount Optionals working my way to the holy grail. So folks won't have to look as far down, when speaking to me. lol


I am looking forward to our spring season, this year. Since all our girls will be optional our gym is having them go up a level instead of IGC. So actually I will be able to directly speak to the differences of how L6 and L7 scores. Because 6 going to 7 girls are not changing floor. Bar and Beam yes but not floor. Of course as every single meet is different, even in the same level, will only have a range of scores to look at but we will see.

 

[l.c.o]

Ok so my assumption here has always been that the differences in min/max deductions has never been that:

-a specific judge varies meet to meet
OR
-that a specific judge's scoring (deductions) varies between levels

BUT instead, it's that Judge A and Judge B may have slightly different thoughts or interpretations on what constitutes a .1 vs .2 vs .3 deduction. For example, if my DD misses her cast to handstand on high bar (L7), depending on the given angle she hits, one judge might deduct .2 but the other .3.

And, as long as she hits 45*, her start value won't be deducted for her level... she just takes the deduction for missing handstand.

Am I wrong?

As far as the rest, my DD is new to optionals and I am learning, so I really can't comment... but I've enjoyed learning from feedback in this thread.

 

[Mommyo2az]

ok so I'm just wanting to educate myself here and knew for sure this is the place to ask!
So, in level 6 you can basically do all level 7 skills in.. my question is.. Is level 6 judged the same as level 7? So if you went to a level 6 meet and got a 9.5 on floor and then went to a level 7 meet and did the same routine as a level 7 would you get the same score??

Lol this thread has gone all over the place. In my judges and parent of an optional gymnast opinion - the answer to the OP question is theoretically yes. If she were simultaneously judged by the same judges on the same day at the same time doing the routine. If the routine met both the 6 and 7 requirements. Sure she would get the same score regardless of level.

 

[raenndrops]

Lol this thread has gone all over the place. In my judges and parent of an optional gymnast opinion - the answer to the OP question is theoretically yes. If she were simultaneously judged by the same judges on the same day at the same time doing the routine. If the routine met both the 6 and 7 requirements. Sure she would get the same score regardless of level.

That's what I said way up thread, lol And IF it is meeting the L7 requirements while not exceeding L6 length, then it automatically meets the L6 requirements based on the requirements for both levels.