WAG Need advice L6

[mamaS]

Here's our story. There is only one gym in our town. The next gym is 30 minutes away in a bigger city. My daughters gym has done something I feel is dishonest and a bit shady. Her group of L5 girls were divided up after the season was over. The majority were chosen to try to go for L7. A few were choses to work for L6. They put up skill charts. My dd completed her chart pretty quickly. I got a little suspicious of the directors intentions when she casually mentioned that they prefer to have no L6. I asked a few weeks later if it was her intention not to have a L6 and she said, no I see DD... and she named the other gymnasts she would compete with. I had a gut feeling she wasn't being honest. To make a long story even longer, I have a friend who is tight with the coaches. She came to me 2 weeks before placement and told me she asked about L6 and dd directly. She was told "We were never going to have a L6. We hate that level". When asked about dd, my friend said to coach," her mom spent a lot of $ on privates to help her meet her goal and she did, what about her"? She shrugged and said, "she'll rock L5 again".
Flash forward.. Conference with coach. She denied everything and said she wasn't having L6 because the girls didn't make the cut. I pointed out that her repoert card had 90% or above on all events. She got ticked and said that L6 is a terrible level that they want to avoid. There's no merit in competing it. There is a better gym 30 minutes away that tested her and is willing to compete her L6. I of course question why they didn't train her 7? But, what can ya do? They told me dd vault is a 9.6 or better on vault at L7 but, would only get an 8.9 at L6.. yada yada on the other events. They also said she is 9 and had only competed 5 once (So, she's good enough, and scored as well as the others last season) I feel jerked around and dd is crushed.
My questions are, does anyone have any advice? Is L6 the demon level that's without merit? Is it better to do L5 twice while uptraining? I think the crazy back stories are about enough to run me off. I know it sounds like sour grapes but, this gym has always had a reputation for playing favorites and weird decisions. Also, I wonder if staying is sending a message to dd that we are desperate enough to put up with a disfunctional , dishonest situation? Thank you for listening.

 

[wallflower]

It's not unusual for gyms in our area to do 2 years of level 5 and then go to 7. A lot of coaches don't seem to like level 6. So I don't think they are making that up. The coaches may truly feel that way. I don't know why they weren't just clear from the beginning in saying they were having her train 6 and then repeat 5. But perhaps they didn't know what they were going to do. Maybe they wanted to see how ready the girls would be before making a decision. It's hard to say without seeing your DD how ready she is and even then every gym has different standards.


As far as switching gyms, just really think it through. A 30 minute drive isn't fun. We drive 45-60 minutes and it takes a toll. Every gym will have something you don't like. I promise you. There are some negatives you can live with and others are deal breakers. I think about our gym as a relationship. It isn't perfect, but in the end we are committed to them.

Without knowing more details than you provided my gut tells me you should stay where you are, but let them know you don't appreciate them not being more upfront. Also I wouldn't put any faith in what a friend said a coach said. There are a lot of drama parents and who knows if she made that up or twisted what they said.

 

[sleeplessinnewyork]

Hi! The first thing I want to say is that I am not a parent, I'm a gymnast, so this isn't coming from a grown up.
First, I think that your gym is being really unfair because it seems as if they are trying to intentionally mislead you in a lot of different ways and are not being completely honest, which is wrong. Whether or not your gym intends to have a level 6 group or not, they should be clear about their intentions with you, so I think that is a problem.
Next, level 6 is a BRUTAL level in many regions. Scoring is REALLY low, most people score in 8's and there are only 1 or 2 nines given out per meet session. It isn't uncommon for first place to be an 8.5 to an 8.8-8.9, which is really strange. many gyms do prefer to skip level 6 as much as possible because it can be discouraging, and is not that different from level 7 skillwise. Mainly , the purpose of level 6 seems to be to divide it into those who are serious about the sport and will thrive in optionals, and those who aren't and will shrivel out and quit. In my previous gym, they had a system where they would literally pick favorites. The coaches favorites, and not necessarily best, girls, were picked to go for level 7, while the other girls were training level 6, and many ended up repeating level 5. This seems to be what is happening in your gym, too. Because your daughter seems to have the skills for atleast level 6 , or even level 7, repeating level 5 would perhaps hinder her progress. It's completely your descision what to do, but perhaps talking with the coaches, or even switching gyms! GOOD LUCK!!

 

[gymdog]

30 minutes? I'd drive my kid to the other gym if it's a possibility. Level 6 is not that serious, people. Yes, scores tend to be low, but everyone scores low. A good routine will still be successful. I've seen the kind of dishonesty you described and it will continue. A 30 minute drive isn't that bad to me, not convenient but it's doable. Anyone from that gym around you that you could carpool with?

Also the thing about privates is a red flag to me.

 

[MaryA]

No, I don't think level 6 is as bad as some people make it out to be. I certainly can't imagine that a judge would score a FHS vault easier at level 7 than level 6. That said, it is not unusual for a gym to do two years at 5 and then score out of 6. As long as she's up-training during the year, it should be fine.

As for the getting jerked around, DD also went to a gym where the coach gave a different answer every time you asked her a question... Or would give a different answer depending on which parent was asking the question. I'm not sure that I got a "being lied to" vibe as much as I got a "telling everyone what they want to hear to avoid conflict" vibe or maybe a "doesn't know the answer but is trying to give a confident reply anyway" vibe. Potentially even a "not 100% mentally stable" vibe. We don't go to that gym anymore, and do go to a gym that is 30 minutes away. But not really for that reason. That was just a small part of larger issues. If you and DD are otherwise happy with the gym, and if you are confident that she'll be doing a lot of uptraining so that she's prepared for 7 next year, I wouldn't worry about two years at 5 and skipping 6.

 

[gymdog]

I certainly can't imagine that a judge would score a FHS vault easier at level 7 than level 6.

Yeah, the vault would not get a 9.6 at level 7 and an 8.9 at level 6. FHS vault scores do rise throughout the levels generally if you look at scores from the same meet, but this is because level 7s on average are more proficient at the vault than level 5s are, for pretty much the most obvious reasons. You may see lots of 7 scores at level 5, and low 8s at level 6, but around here most level 7s score 8.5+ on vaults, with a "pretty good" score being around a 9.0 and the best scoring around 9.6. At the last big meet in level 5, 9.0 was the highest vault score.

 

[mamaS]

Thank you so much for your input. First, Massi gymnast, you are are very wise and thoughtful. I was so impressed with your input. Wallflower, actually the friend that gave me the info is another coach from the region. She knows our gyms reputation and wanted to set things straight so we could move forward with a decision. I know some coaches would cringe that she did some spying but, this situation was agony for my little girl. As far as the Red flag about privates comment. I'm not sure I understand what that means. The reason she did some privates was to clean up text errors mostly. We were told that she should because six is rough This gym is just all over the place with what they do from year to year. One year they say L6 has merit and the next they say it doesn't. I just want her to have the best experience and to keep moving forward.
Here's a good one, One of the mom's of a girl picked to work for 7 told me that I should just donate to the gym and that would launch dear daughter. She said she donated $5000 in equipment and that made them sit up and take notice of her dd. Oh my... Rolling my eyes.. I don't have it and I wouldn't if I did. BTW, I've already paid almost $1500 in my comp fund. They are threatening to not refund it if we switch gyms. The season hasn't started yet and I never signed the letter of intent yet. It would be a mess. I feel stuck financially too. I'm not sure I can afford a second comp fund if they "steal" mine.

 

[gymgal]

If this deception is an on-going issue - no matter how small - then I would probably be looking to switch but if you have otherwise been happy at this gym and your dd trusts the coaches, then it would be best to stay. However, I would want to have a talk with the hc about future expectations for your dd and for honesty.

I'm a little confused about the vault comment. i can't imagine the same vault scoring significantly lower in L6 than L7. Just doesn't make sense.

 

[iwannacoach]

Being lied to is all the reason you need to pick up your bags and hotfoot it down to the other gym. My take on the situation is the club only "runs" a L6 group when they can pack it with enough of the right kids to make it work.....for them first, and for the kids second....well geez, it is a for profit business. I got no problem with skipping L6 in the context of doing what's right for the kid....at the appropriate age level.....and for some kids age 9 is too young.

It boils down to being able to trust the people you spend your money with....I mean like after family housing, medical care, and transportation spending, it's pretty much where your money goes......Would you buy a car from a weasel of a sales person and set yourself up for several years of payments....when you know hardly a thing about which cars are good "buys" and which are lemons?

About the comp fees......If you've paid for a product with the expectation of recieving it, have not yet recieved it, and the merchant will incur no tangible costs in refunding it when you no longer want the item, you should receive a refund, at least that's the way small claims courts seem to see it.

About money spent on privates......If you were urged in any way to use privates as a means to keep your daughter on a timeline compatible with progressing to L6, and she meets reasonable criteria to advance.....and they subsequently decide they don't want to field the L6 team you spent money on privates for at their urging........Well that sure seems unethical, and about the only thing that keeps that label of "unethical" from changing to one much worse is the fact your dd received some value beyond preparation for level 6.....unless the only work done was on text errors for L6 and deemed "important" by the coach.....in that case the label goes beyond unethical if other elements are in place.

Bottom line in my opinion is you owe them no consideration what so ever, demand your comp money and use the small claims process to get it. You'll likely win your case, and in the small claims court I've been involved with a few times....the filing fee for both parties becomes the responsibility of the party who looses their case, and based on the 5 (ish) hours I've spent waiting to win my cases, your's is going to be a cakewalk.

 

[wallflower]

By all means do what you feel is best for your child because you know the gym situation better than us. I'm just wondering if there really is deceit going on or if your perception is just that of being deceived. Were you every promised she could do level 6? I'm just not clear on that from your post. It changes my opinion on if the gym did you wrong or not. Because I think a lot of gym parents that are new don't quite get the process of being moved to compete the next level. I've seen parents get very upset when at the last minute their child can't compete the level they were hoping for and they get angry at the gym and feel deceived.

I've had 2 gym experiences with my daughter. One gym was very upfront and laid it out for you that we have 9 months and we want her to compete level ___. Her current gym is much more ambiguous. They train and you really don't know and it doesn't look like they will be ready, but somehow it works out. Basically they keep you in the dark and while that is frustrating, it's also great. It's great because it allows the kid to just train and see how far they can get. So while the first gym was straight forward it was also limiting. No matter what the child accomplishes in the months leading up to the season, their level is already decided.

By all means if they are liars and you don't feel good about the place then run as fast as you can to a new gym. I'm just simply pointing out that level move ups can be last minute decisions and it could be that it really isn't in your child's best interest.

You said something about kids being chosen to do level 7 even though they scored the same in level 5. It could totally be favoritism. Or it could be completely legit reasons that you can't understand or see. It could be age, it could be the strength of the gymnast on a particular event. Of my dd's level 6 team of 15 girls only 5 were chosen to do level 7. It was not the top 5 kids based on AA scores. It was based on the ability to do bars. Those that had cast to handstands and the coaches felt could do level 7 bars were moved even though they were not the strongest AA gymnast.

 

[mamaS]

Wllflower, thank you for your opinion. Actually, they took me aside and told me that dd was going to compete 6 about 2 months before the decision was announced. She was ready then. I'm not sure what happened behind the scenes. The girls going to L7 do not have bars at all at this point. They are 50% at best. Another coach has told me that they will have a terrible L7 year and to be glad dd dodged that bullet. None of them can get to handstand, let alone giant and we start in 3 weeks. I sure hope that she is wrong. It would be a bummer for the kiddos they pushed up, as they all are trying so hard.
I get what you mean about straight forward vs ambiguous. HC told me that they no longer use a crystal ball to guess how a kid will do mid-season, they have to have 4 strong events to go up a level. When I asked her about the L7's not having bars greater than 50% she said, when we look into our crystal ball, we think they will get there. She seriously contradicted herself within 90 seconds. I just kept my trap shut. If I called her out, there would have been a mega meltdown. (I bite my tongue a lot). She was implying dd didn't have it. I showed her the report card that said she did. They also did clinics for girls trying to make 5 and others going for 7. I knew they were messing about when nothing was available for the 6's. We've lost 8 girls in the last 6 weeks. Not good.... I guess the bottom line is I need to decide what to do. If we leave, I need to make it on a good note, tough as that may be to do.

 

[gymgal]

Thank you so much for your input. First, Massi gymnast, you are are very wise and thoughtful. I was so impressed with your input. Wallflower, actually the friend that gave me the info is another coach from the region. She knows our gyms reputation and wanted to set things straight so we could move forward with a decision. I know some coaches would cringe that she did some spying but, this situation was agony for my little girl. As far as the Red flag about privates comment. I'm not sure I understand what that means. The reason she did some privates was to clean up text errors mostly. We were told that she should because six is rough This gym is just all over the place with what they do from year to year. One year they say L6 has merit and the next they say it doesn't. I just want her to have the best experience and to keep moving forward.
Here's a good one, One of the mom's of a girl picked to work for 7 told me that I should just donate to the gym and that would launch dear daughter. She said she donated $5000 in equipment and that made them sit up and take notice of her dd. Oh my... Rolling my eyes.. I don't have it and I wouldn't if I did. BTW, I've already paid almost $1500 in my comp fund. They are threatening to not refund it if we switch gyms. The season hasn't started yet and I never signed the letter of intent yet. It would be a mess. I feel stuck financially too. I'm not sure I can afford a second comp fund if they "steal" mine.

I read your second post after I posted my reply. We must have been writing at the same time.

Anyway, this is sounding like a situation I would not want to be in at all. I'm not sure I would trust any owner who accepted considerable amount of money from individual parents. Too much chance for lobbying... And thinking that the coaches would put these new 7's in a position to fail rubs me the wrong way. Even if they are ready with the other events, competing bars when you are not ready can be such a morale downer - especially considering it is the entire team.

I think I would be taking the 30 min drive to the other gym. We drive 25 min (no other choice) and it is not bad at all. Before this year, I drove dd every practice but this year, we set up a carpool, which has worked really well.

As far as the comp fund, they will likely not refund the money already used for meets they entered your dd in, but the rest should be given back to you, though you will likely have to fight for it.

good luck with your decision.

 

[Chocoholic]

My daughter's old gym acted somewhat similarly. I don't think the head coaches thought they were being deceitful. I believe they genuinely convinced themselves that their rationalizations were true. At our gym, the issue was often the size of the level so, for example, if there were not enough girls to make it worthwhile for them to send a level 6 team to competition, they might decide some girls should skip to level 7, some should do Prep Op, some should repeat level 5 etc. I would have preferred if they simply said, "hey, we don't have enough level 6s so your daughter will compete level 5 again, while uptraining 6 and 7."

 

[Gymmommy71]

After my daughters first L6 meet I truly can say we've experienced this brutal scoring that everyone talks about...eesh :/...like other posters have said though, almost everyone was scoring low, so her placements at awards were still pretty comparable to last year even w/ the lower scores.

I would be very upset about a situation where my daughter was either pushed to L7 when she wasn't ready or had to repeat L5 unnecessarily because her gym just didn't want to do L6. And it sounds like there are several girls in this situation, not just one or two. Maybe some of the girls/parents of the girls that went right to L7 from L5 feel honored, but they aren't going to feel that way if they get 4's and 5's on bars and can't place in the AA at meets because of it.

That situation w/ the $5,000 donation and the girl moving up shortly afterwards would also really bother me...

I'd really be talking to the owner about this, as non-confrontational as possible, first to try and convince them to do L6, and if they have made up their mind against it, next I'd be trying to get that $1,500 back (that's *a lot* of money)...I find it unusual that you'd have to pay so much money up front towards meet fees before you even know what level you'll be competing. I don't think gyms around here do that (I've always known what level my daughter was going to be *before* I started paying her meet payments)...is this not the case everywhere?

Good luck to you...I sympathize w/ your situation as it sounds like our daughters are at the same level gymnastics-wise...I totally understand how you must feel.

 

[mamaS]

Chocoholic- I agree completely! I would do much better with a little transparency. They will not do L6. They are stubborn and have huge egos. They would see this as a gymnast vs coach situation. I will set up a meeting with them this week. I don't feel very positive about it. On the bright side...The other gym is so much more elite than ours. Kids who defect over, always end up better gymnasts. I just hate to leave her close friends and the only gym she's ever known. She thinks she would be happy switching if necessary,
Gymmommy-Yes, they are setting up the girls going for 7. They won't even be able to qualify for state at this rate.

 

[JessLW]

It would bother me a lot that your coaches don't all seem to be on the same page and that one coach is speaking negatively to you, a parent, about other girls on the team. I'm not blaming you for that, by the way, it isn't your fault what they say to you, but it would raise big red flags to me that there is a coach telling you that the girls are going to have a horrible L7 year (which isn't necessarily true, btw. Giants are not required for L7, and casting does not have to be all the way to handstand, just past 45 degrees). The coaches should have each others' backs and present a united front, imo.

That, along with the intimation that donations will get your child special favors and the coaches who can't keep their stories straight, would send me looking for a new gym. It isn't really about whether your child competes level 6 or repeats level 5 -- there seem to be deeper issues with this gym. I wouldn't worry so much about gym friends -- she'll make new friends. If you need to leave, do it now. The longer you draw it out the bigger a deal it will become.

 

[bookworm]

.
Here's a good one, One of the mom's of a girl picked to work for 7 told me that I should just donate to the gym and that would launch dear daughter. She said she donated $5000 in equipment and that made them sit up and take notice of her dd. Oh my... Rolling my eyes.. I don't have it and I wouldn't if I did. BTW, I've already paid almost $1500 in my comp fund. They are threatening to not refund it if we switch gyms. The season hasn't started yet and I never signed the letter of intent yet. It would be a mess. I feel stuck financially too. I'm not sure I can afford a second comp fund if they "steal" mine.

This to me is the biggest red flag in the whole story, and I would be hightailing it out of there...especially if the gymnasts that move to the other gym seem to do better. And if you can't make the move this season, I would plan to be out of there by the next one...seems shady all around..and don't think that they will ever admit that Susie's mom donated money to the gym....

The $1500 IS a lot of money and I would politely ask for the return of it (check the scratch dates for the meets you are entered in and if it's before that, you should get your money back...and also if you switch gyms and go to some of the same meets, your entry fee could still be used if they refuse to return it..and i would mention the small claims court if they don't budge)

 

[gardenia01]

My daughter's old gym acted somewhat similarly. I don't think the head coaches thought they were being deceitful. I believe they genuinely convinced themselves that their rationalizations were true. At our gym, the issue was often the size of the level so, for example, if there were not enough girls to make it worthwhile for them to send a level 6 team to competition, they might decide some girls should skip to level 7, some should do Prep Op, some should repeat level 5 etc. I would have preferred if they simply said, "hey, we don't have enough level 6s so your daughter will compete level 5 again, while uptraining 6 and 7."

This is exactly what happened to my dd. I don't think there was deceit intended, but they clearly had decided that it would not make sense to have only one or two Level 6s so my dd repeated L5 and then skipped to L7. Personally, I think there is value in L6 and no matter what they tell you about uptraining, some amount of time that could be spent uptraining will have to be spent on L5 skills and routines. That said, we stayed put because I feel that our gym is the best for us in the area where we live and my dd was quite young at the time.

 

[KnowNuthin]

FWIW, here's my 2 cents: As mentioned in this thread, there's no perfect gym. What you need to decide as a parent is what's the best environment for your child to flourish. Has anyone at your current gym made the move to the gym that's 30 minutes away from you? If so, I'd contact them and see what they have to say.

I currently drive 25-30 minutes to get to my daughter's gym but my choices are limited. Naturally, a carpool helps ease the burden, so I'd look for that from the onset if you do decide to jump ship.

As far as comp fees are concerned... is this through a booster club? Or through the gym? Typically, there's a policy or a set of bylaws that clearly state the position on refunds. Obviously, if they've already registered your dd for upcoming meets, that money is forfeit.

 

[shelovestoflip]

FWIW, here's my 2 cents: As mentioned in this thread, there's no perfect gym. What you need to decide as a parent is what's the best environment for your child to flourish. Has anyone at your current gym made the move to the gym that's 30 minutes away from you? If so, I'd contact them and see what they have to say.

I currently drive 25-30 minutes to get to my daughter's gym but my choices are limited. Naturally, a carpool helps ease the burden, so I'd look for that from the onset if you do decide to jump ship.

As far as comp fees are concerned... is this through a booster club? Or through the gym? Typically, there's a policy or a set of bylaws that clearly state the position on refunds. Obviously, if they've already registered your dd for upcoming meets, that money is forfeit.

If she is registered for all the meets already but the scratch date hasn't happened yet, you should be able to get your money back for those meets. My daughter was injured last season and we were able to get money back for the later meets.

Also, just a thought but if your daughter was to move to a different gym and they were registered for the same meets, perhaps the money could just be moved to the new gym's meet registry.

As for your whole quandry, it sounds fishy to me, especially the part about the woman buying $5000 worth of equiptment for the gym.....WHAT???!!!!!