WAG Pak vs Bail

[Clover]

Are there advantages to one over the other? Is there a "type" of gymnast that is generally a better fit at one vs the other?

Thanks!

 

[Jortiz03]

I'm pretty sure both are of "d" value (the bail is only a "d" if you do it from hs to hs) so in terms of difficulty they are both the same. I normally see younger girls or girls that are very flexible perform pac's. and then bails I see more for older gymnasts, but homestly it all depends on preference and which one the gymnast feels more comfortable learning.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

If they are small then they learn a Pak, That does not mean taller girls can't do Pak, in my Avatar to the left you see Carly Doing a Pak, she is about 5.5, but she learned it 4 years ago. We pretty much pick the bail for the bigger kids but if they just don't get it then we try a Pak. All the small kids start with a Pak, if they don't get it then they generally don't go 9 that season and either get the Pak the next season or learn a Bail. I also have some very small kids who do Bails because they just didn't get or like the Pak at all. Body type also is a factor, but that is impossible to explain.
The Pak Salto has a distinct disadvantage in level 9 and early 10, because a pirouette is the transition and usually gets some type of a deduction (the judges cannot help themselves). So the Bail routine will usually score a half or whole tenth higher because it does not have the extra 1/2 (unless the kid just nails it). In level 10 (early) the bail has a huge advantage because a Bail straight to Toe Hecht is only a .05 off in "upto", while another child can do a Jeager, then kip cast to bail (but doesn't not connect the toe hecht) they actually get a .1 off. Yes you are reading that correct, the current system actually rewards the LESSER routine...... reason being the D+C is connected in the Bail to toe Hecht, and the D+C (major release to cast Bail, unless the Bail is HS to HS) is not connected.... So yea.... wrap your brain around that.... However! The Pak does have it's reward later on if I child performs a Trick from the Shaposh family and connects it to a Pak, that is .4 in bonus. And if the Pak is connected to a major release it is automatically a D so another .4 bonus is rewarded, (while the Bail needs to go from Hstand to Hstand). Hope that makes sense.

 

[thecurseofthechalkyhand]

Yes you are reading that correct, the current system actually rewards the LESSER routine...... reason being the D+C is connected in the Bail to toe Hecht, and the D+C (major release to cast Bail, unless the Bail is HS to HS) is not connected.... So yea.... wrap your brain around that....

It's nice that coaches generally have one less reason to rush with putting things into the routines. It's just too bad that the coaches who need to use this less-is-more strategy the most aren't really the ones taking advantage of it.

 

[GymmieC]

Which is easier on the joints? Pac or bail? How about the back? DD is still not cleared from doc, back stress fracture, and something I just heard about this same topic has me now wondering in DD's case.