WAG Question for coaches and parents. Move-ups?

[mamaoftwo]

So...

As I've posted before, DD is currently a first-year Level 4 gymmie.

She's done ok this season. AA scores range 35-36ish.

On Monday, her entire group was apparently told that they will all be competing Level 3s next year. They'll still train some L5 skills, though I guess.

Is this common practice?

We're only 1/2 way through the season. We also have a whole off-season yet.

I am ok with it - if she's better off repeating, then that's that.

But to decide already? What kind of motivational tool is that?

The writing has been on the wall. When the 4s are all combined, DD's group gets far less corrections/hands-on help than the more advanced group (those girls also do TOPs) and also has more "down-time". They're also not uptraining at all yet (Other group has their kips, DD's group hasn't started them).

I just take issue with the fact that it seems like they're not even giving the girls a chance.

Some moms are speculating that this is because the current L3's are pretty behind (they aren't even competing this season) - they'll need some solid 4's next year.

DD's ok with it - as long as her whole group is "held back" together. She said some girls are threatening to quit.

Anyway - just curious.

 

[Quadqueen]

when does your season end? just trying to figure out the timing. do you know when your gym typically decides on move-ups?

 

[mamaoftwo]

when does your season end? just trying to figure out the timing. do you know when your gym typically decides on move-ups?

Thanks for the reply. Season ends in December. Not sure when move-ups are actually decided. DD was officially made a L4 last June (schedule/coach change wise). So, maybe then? But we "knew" they'd be moving up late last winter.

 

[Jabba]

My opinion as a coach is that I dont see the logic in that. If she's getting 35s and 36s, she's proficient at level 4 skills and should move on to working level 5. plus I have no idea why they'd be determing that in the middle of your current season. i agree with you - it seems like that would take away motivation to progress. Personally, I base all my decisions on the individual kid. If they have the skills and work hard, they move up. if they dont and would benefit from repeating, they dont move up. If that means we have a gap in levels at our gym, so be it. I dont believe in holding a kid back just so that the gym can be strong in all levels. That being said, only the coaches can tell you what they are thinking. Maybe they do have a logical reason that we can't see. Before doing anything else, I would ask to talk to the coaches. Hopefully you are at a gym where the communication is open.

 

[sglemon]

At our gym, ALL the level 4 are required to compete level 4 for 2 years. My DD was getting high 36s, low 37s after her first year. Second year, was high 37s, low 38s. We had nothing but a positive experience competing that second year of level 4. Her form and dance became far more refined. She became much more comfortable in front of the judges, smiling and working on her presentation. Competition was far less stressful. It was a very fun year. She won most of her meets, AA, plus numerous event wins. She has scored over 9.5 on all the apparatus. Confidence swelled and she (and I) enjoyed the whole season very much. Now, she is a level 5, she is still 6 weeks out from her first competition, she looks great! Skills are right on, dance and form are gorgeous and she has the confidence about her. She is really enjoying Gymnastics now, and has no pressure to train up and does it at her own pace.

It is ashame girls are threatening to quit, I hate to hear that. It frustrates me to no end, when parents get all hung up on what level their girls are at (and it reflects in the gymnasts themselves) and want them pushed ahead before they are ready. In the end, those are the ones who will be dropping out sooner If people would spend more time on personal development, and less time on numbers, they would enjoy the sport a whole lot more. There is so much a child can learn spending a second year competitng at the same level.

Anyways, I look at it as a fantastic opportunity for your DD, to grow as an individual and a gymnast. Just because some other girls maybe pushed ahead this year, it doesn't mean, they will always be ahead. many get held behind in latter levels for various reasons. You will find your DD catching up with most of those girls again in the next few years.

One final note, in the "new" level 3, they can to a pull over or glide kip mount on bars, so there is an opportunity to feel like she is competing a little higher then the first year 3s.

 

[Seeker]

My opinion as a coach is that I dont see the logic in that. If she's getting 35s and 36s, she's proficient at level 4 skills and should move on to working level 5. plus I have no idea why they'd be determing that in the middle of your current season.

I'm just a parent, but I agree with this too. Makes no sense to make those decisions now. And if she's scoring 36's already, there seems to be NO NEED to repeat Level 4 (new 3). The goals at our gym are not to be the Level 4 State Champ, but to be proficient and move on... Obviously, being the State Champ would be awesome, but certainly not the end-state goal. Seems like your DD and her group are being pigeon-holed and somewhat ignored.

 

[Quadqueen]

In general, I don’t agree with “mandatory repeat” of any level, never mind level 4 if they are scoring at or near 36. But it would be more understandable to have your DD repeat if ALL level 4s were repeating. Our gym is not about winning state championships, though, and we don’t see 37s (from our gymnasts or others at any of our meets). I think it is way early to be saying this group is all repeating. But, I encourage you to talk to the coach about what their reasoning is.

 

[Quadqueen]

At our gym, ALL the level 4 are required to compete level 4 for 2 years. My DD was getting high 36s, low 37s after her first year. Second year, was high 37s, low 38s. We had nothing but a positive experience competing that second year of level 4. Her form and dance became far more refined. She became much more comfortable in front of the judges, smiling and working on her presentation. Competition was far less stressful. It was a very fun year. She won most of her meets, AA, plus numerous event wins. She has scored over 9.5 on all the apparatus. Confidence swelled and she (and I) enjoyed the whole season very much. Now, she is a level 5, she is still 6 weeks out from her first competition, she looks great! Skills are right on, dance and form are gorgeous and she has the confidence about her. She is really enjoying Gymnastics now, and has no pressure to train up and does it at her own pace.

It is ashame girls are threatening to quit, I hate to hear that. It frustrates me to no end, when parents get all hung up on what level their girls are at (and it reflects in the gymnasts themselves) and want them pushed ahead before they are ready. In the end, those are the ones who will be dropping out sooner If people would spend more time on personal development, and less time on numbers, they would enjoy the sport a whole lot more. There is so much a child can learn spending a second year competitng at the same level.

Anyways, I look at it as a fantastic opportunity for your DD, to grow as an individual and a gymnast. Just because some other girls maybe pushed ahead this year, it doesn't mean, they will always be ahead. many get held behind in latter levels for various reasons. You will find your DD catching up with most of those girls again in the next few years.

One final note, in the "new" level 3, they can to a pull over or glide kip mount on bars, so there is an opportunity to feel like she is competing a little higher then the first year 3s.

It sounds like her DD has shown "proficiency" at this level (again, there could be weaknesses or other reasons we don't know about for keeping her back)...not every gym needs a girl to score in the 37s or 38s before they move them up.

 

[mamaoftwo]

Thanks, everyone. The input is great.

Yes, it does sort-of seem like they're forgotten about some. The focus is on our top-scoring girls, for sure. I don't think anyone could argue this.

Unfortunately, we seem to have landed in a gym that produces consistent AA champs (AAs of 37-38 - granted these girls have weekly private lessons + TOPS practice). We also often place first. They are VERY scores focused. They girls all actually sit and watch for scores, and get incentives from coaches for top scores.

DD stated two meets ago that she thinks she lets her coaches down as she's usually in the bottom 2 AA scores in the girls in her age group.

Scores are not my focus. I didn't realize the gym was. The other campus was so laid back.

Will try to talk to the coaches, but there's been no direct communication thus far. They usually stay hidden after practice.

 

[sglemon]

I completely understand what you are going through and I am not discrediting it by any means, just bringing a different POV. Next year, your DD will be one of the high scorers. I understand you don't focus on scores, my DD and I don't either, the only reason I even write them down is for a point of reference, in posts like this. We both focus on small attainable corrections within each routine, as a gauge to how well a meet goes. But, in the end, you can't deny, there is a good feeling standing at the top of the podium. How would that make her (and you) feel? She will be getting all the attention and all the "new" level 3 will be looking up at her going "wow." I don't feel the gym is writing her off, just giving her an extra year to get there. They want her to be "There!" If they didn't, they would move her ahead, where the scoring gets increasingly difficult.

As I said above, there is so much more to learn about gymnastics and competing then proficiency.

 

[Quadqueen]

if you do have girls scoring that high, it sounds like your gym may be like sglemon's, in that they want to see 37s and 38s before moving them up. I am curious though...do the girls at these types of gyms score 37s and 38s at level 5, 6 and 7, in just one year of training? or are they repeating those levels too? and how many hours are they doing? I guess there are gyms with all different philosophies. I think this kind can be very discouraging for some kids.

 

[gymmomtotwo]

A decison like this would not be made at our gym until late spring (right before school lets out). Our gym really only starts competition at Level 5. If the kids have all their level 5 skills before evaluations late spring, t hey go to level 5 and perfect routines all summer. First mock meet starts late August/early September. I would be seriously annoyed at being told DD had to repeat Level 4 in the middle of October when she has almost a year to develop skills. Now, if it was late spring and she didn't have a decent kip, and she had to do another year of training team, so be it. Then it's clear she's not ready to compete. Your DD should be working on her kip and other uptraining right now. My six year old is working on it now, and is not expected to compete Level 5 for almost two more years. I'd probably look into other gyms. She deserves the chance and should not be stuck in 4 for another year seven months before a decision needs to be made.

 

[gym law mom]

It is odd to be setting a plan in place for fall 2013 when they haven't even completed the fall 2012 season. A high scoring gymnast at one level does not mean she'll do well at the next. I've seen girls have very high AA scores and struggle to get skills for the next level and others with good, but not great AA scores do well in moving on. Personally I think they all should be allowed to uptrain starting in Jan. and then see who has the skills needed for L5.

 

[sglemon]

if you do have girls scoring that high, it sounds like your gym may be like sglemon's, in that they want to see 37s and 38s before moving them up. I am curious though...do the girls at these types of gyms score 37s and 38s at level 5, 6 and 7, in just one year of training? or are they repeating those levels too? and how many hours are they doing? I guess there are gyms with all different philosophies. I think this kind can be very discouraging for some kids.

Generally scores stay pretty consistent through the levels. But like in every gym, you will have scores drop off, generally on girls with changing interests, like cheerleading and not coming to practice as consistently, or some just can't get the higher skills. On the flip side, you will also see girls who scores 36s in 4, all of a sudden score 38s in Level 7, but it is definitely the minority. Through Level 4, 5 and 6, scores stay relatively consistent, instead of 38s, you might see high 37s in 5 and 6, etc.. but generally within 1/2 point. Also when you look at the state meet results, and a lot of the gyms in our state repeat level 4, the names stay relatively consistent through the compulsories.

 

[cazoon]

You should try to set up a meeting with the coaches and head coach. We have had a few problems at our gym and this really seems to help. Our gym is not focused on scores, our main goal is to hit 4 for 4 (clean and pretty routines on all events with no major bobbles). Last year, the level 4s were not even allowed to look at their scores at competitions. Hope that you figure out your problem. I think that your daughter will do just fine in level 5 next year with those scores. good luck!

 

[Quadqueen]

I honestly have never seen anything close to a 38 at a meet, except maybe at states where a certain gym that has trained two recent Olympians has their level 5s doing 20 hours a week. I wonder if the girls are that much better, or is it that judging is that different in different parts of the country?

 

[wallinbl]

I honestly have never seen anything close to a 38 at a meet, except maybe at states where a certain gym that has trained two recent Olympians has their level 5s doing 20 hours a week. I wonder if the girls are that much better, or is it that judging is that different in different parts of the country?

There are videos of 38's and 39's out there on YouTube. Take a look and see how they compare with what you see at your meets. I'm not sure I could watch a 38 and a 39 and tell the difference, but I could watch a 37 and a 38 and tell the difference. There are 38's around here (maybe 2-3 out of ~150-200 girls in a level at a meet), but when you see those routines, you know they're getting a 9.5+ - they're striking. The 37's (10-15 at a meet) look good, but don't turn your head like the 38's do.

 

[Quadqueen]

I’ve seen them online, and I do realize these routines are better. I just don’t see them in person, in our state. But, we aren’t one of those gyms that have girls repeating in order to get scores like this, and we don’t do a lot of hours a week (and you won't see our level 5 girls, like was mentioned in another thread, warming up layouts on floor). Different philosophies I guess.

 

[gymgal]

Unfortunately, we seem to have landed in a gym that produces consistent AA champs (AAs of 37-38 - granted these girls have weekly private lessons + TOPS practice). We also often place first. They are VERY scores focused. They girls all actually sit and watch for scores, and get incentives from coaches for top scores.

ugh. I hate to read stuff like this. There is a gym that dd has competed against that is like this. It gets so bad that in the lower levels, if one of their gymnasts doesn't get a certain score, the other gymnasts walk away and don't congratulate her. And we are talking about high scores: 9.5's ; 9.75's. It is so sad to watch.

As to the OP, I wouldn't be happy in this gym. I am of the belief that the purpose of gymnastics is to have fun, learn skills, and gain confidence in performing those skills. To me (and I am only a parent), if a gymnast is averaging a 36 or above in meets and does not show specific weakness in any event (still does not consistently compete her kip, BWO, BHS, etc), then it's time to move that gymnast along. And really, I only mention the "36" score because it tends to be the score most gyms use as an indicator that the skills have been mastered across the board, though this certainly is not always true as you can have an awesome vaulter and tumbler with horrible bar skills and it will even out in the AA.

I do not see the purpose in making the decision now for next season, unless as you have said they are likely wanting a strong L3 team next year. Some gyms just more focused on medals and it appears yours is like that.

 

[Jabba]

Thanks, everyone. The input is great.

Will try to talk to the coaches, but there's been no direct communication thus far. They usually stay hidden after practice.

I'd see this as a big red flag and a much bigger issue. In my experience as a gymnast, I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to coaches. The good ones don't hide. As a coach nowadays, I am always open to talking to my parents if they have questions/concerns. It usually doesn't change how I'm coaching their daughter, but I want them to understand why I'm doing certain things the way I am and I want them to know that they are always welcome to talk to me. If a coach feels good about what he/she is doing, he/she should have nothing to hide.