Rigged competitions?

[juju]

Today we went to our first ever state trials. Big event – and of course, a tiny hope that we get that special ribbon. It was not meant to be. Today we witnessed total victory of private education over public. Yes, in today’s Sydney’s Inner West WAG level 1 (yes, we are in a very beginning – I hope) state trials, round 1, MLC and PLC gymnastics club absolutely dominated the podium. They were 1[SUP]st[/SUP], 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] and with minor exclusion all the way to the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] place. Their superiority was not that obvious during the competition and we naively hoped that our girls are doing really well. It downed later that other than gymnastics skills considerations were taken into account , when it was announced that the awards are given separately for different ages competing in the same level. And MLC and PLC girls got them all. Bless them. It downed later that there was more than gymnastics competition going on, when the girl who fell during her hand stand, was the winner of the floor routine. Of course, she was from MLC. I was also wondering why it took 40 minutes to processed the results for 50 kids – simple Excel spreadsheet and sorting will give you all the winners in maximum 15 minutes – if you have to enter results manually. Otherwise it would take only 5 minutes.
We were disappointed. However, there is a round two. So, if we work hard, we can have a chance to make a regional team. Or we might not; it depends, whether the next round is designed to determine the best athlete or the best club which belong to private school, which have to justify the big fees. It depends, if the regional team is selected according to the gymnastics skills of the girls, or the negotiation power of the coaches/clubs. Well, you would say, you are making far fetched conclusions. Sorry, I do my maths - it does not help that for the last week’s spectacular gala WAG competition, held in Manly Warringah gymnastics club, the same school absolutely dominated the podium. There was no age limit for the competition and I have heard that the girls competing for level 1 for the school are actually in level 2.
I just wonder if it is only me who feels that the competition was designed to the advantage of certain clubs? Are there any “politicsâ€￾ going on that I should be aware of?

 

[cbone]

My daughter had one competition last year where we travelled out-of-state. In her level, there were only two teams from in-state competing. One of those teams was simply not very good, but the other was. While this team was good, their scores seemed disproportionately high. On floor, they disregarded one of the prescribed elements (even though it was relatively minor, it IS part of the routine). Their beam routines were admittedly strong and was where they shined. Their vaults lacked amplitude and several of their girls did the same thing that should have resulted in a deduction. Their bars were average. They ended up beating our gym for the team title (the only time our girls lost all year). At first I was angry, sure that "the fix was on".

Then I slowed down. I'd like to believe that judge corruption is at an absolute minimum and that buying-off judges doesn't occur. From that perspective I evaluated what happened. First, I have to acknowledge that I'm biased. I looked for that gym's mistakes and our gym's strengths. It colored my perception- especially since our girls were doing so well all season that I EXPECTED them to win.

Secondly, they had a larger team. Even if we were better than them on average, you take the top scores for team and they have a statistical advantage. It was easy to overlook that all season as our six-member team had beaten teams with ten or twelve gymnasts.

Thirdly, this team had the advantage of having dealt with these judges. Like it or not, certain judges look for certain things. Our coaches have discussed what they felt were low scores with local judges and have received feedback about what the judges wanted to see. Our girls incorporated those small changes into their routines and I'm sure they got higher scores because of it at local meets. The team that beat us had home-court advantage at this meet, but that's not their fault. That's just the benefit of accumulating experience with certain judges.

Fourth, our girls were not at their best. My daughter fell off of beam for the first time ever in competition. The other coach told our coach that it was their best performance ever. They just plain stepped up while our girls were average. (Luckily, our entire team stepped-up at state, which was a far bigger meet to every one of the girls anyway.)

Lastly, we lost team by 0.625 points. It was close. Our best gymnast still won all-around. My daughter still won vault. Our strongest routines still placed where they would be expected to. This wasn't a meet where our gymnast who won AA every event came in sixth. We just lost a really close competition. Do I think our gym won? As objectively as I can answer, my answer is still a resounding YES. I believe in my heart that our girls won that competition. I am more sure, however, that the competition was not rigged.

Sometimes if we slow down and look at all the elements involved, we can see why things happened the way they did without necessarily agreeing with the outcome.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

wouldn't surprise me...

 

[gymgal]

wouldn't surprise me...

seeing what I have seen, I'm sticking with dunno on this one... But cbone does bring up some very good points about subjectivity in the parent/gymnast eyes.

 

[gymgurl]

MLC is a pretty strong club, I know it is a school, but nevertheless, they have some pretty good gymnasts. Even up in level 6 MLC still places well.

Secondly,at the gala they couldn't have dominated the podium as there was no podium placing in level 1 they just did the ribbon system with different colour ribbons for different score categories there was none of the 1st 2nd 3rd stuff that goes on.

And I know this isn't the case always but maybe that club was just a lot bigger, like we have a fairly large club and often dominated the podium simply because probability wise we have a greater chance, combine that with a few great gymnasts and voila you have a podium dominating team.

 

[juju]

Thank you everyone for your replies, much appreciated! I feel better knowing I am not the only parent experiencing the strong feelings.

I need to clarify a couple of points:

1. Dear cbone, yes I agree that I am not an objective judge. I tried to do the excercise you suggested. Yet still the competition seems have been designed to benefit mostly the certain club; or as you suggetsed, their coaches worked more on the details the particular judges were keen to see. I guess it is the coaches experience which allows them to know such details.

2. Secondly, to clarify my pessimistic outlook - in Australia private schools get goverment funding if they provide successful sporting program - and both MLC and PLC are the private schools. Further, successful sporting program obviously works for prestige of the school. Next, what chances my girl have to represent the school should I enroll her in the schools gymnastics club? Well, obviously girls who are students of the school and whose parents can fork out $AUS 20,000 a year have much better chances. And that is what I call triumph of private education vs public.

So, obviously being parent you try to provide the best opportunities for your kids - though it is not always possible. On the brighter side, we had a chat with my little "monkey", and she says that regardless the awards and places, she loves her gymnastics and she will keep going

 

[gymgurl]

Sounds like you have a bee in your bonnet about private schools...I am still confused, are you asking what chances has your daughter got against children whose parents will spend 20 000 a year on education, my guesses is a lot, money doesn't equate to good gymnastics, hard work and training does so i am not sure why you are so upset about MLC and PLC

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Level one is all about the little things and looking nice. Well established programs (like MLC and PLC) generally do well with lower levels because they pay meticulous attention to details. All those little mistakes do add up and it is not uncommon for a child to still do well with a fall and place well above others who have poorly done skills. At this level most judges are more focused on not falling asleep, hoping no one stuffs up/cries and getting through all the routines so they can go home on time.

 

[juju]

Pineapple_Lump: "At this level most judges are more focused on not falling asleep, hoping no one stuffs up/cries and getting through all the routines so they can go home on time".
Cheers, Pineapple, this clarifies a lot .

And yes, gymgurl, I have a bee for the private schools, exactly because I believe that "money doesn't equate to good gymnastics, hard work and training". I just think that well established programs like MLC and PLC have their say in how competition is conducted and how it is judged. I do not imply that they bribe judges, no. There are more subtle ways to influence results, isn't it?

 

[SignHere]

Well, I do know that in USAG compulsory levels, judges deduct 0.5 for a fall on beam and 0.1 for not pointing toes and up to 0.3 for bent legs. So a tight routine with clean skills and a fall can easily score higher than a routine where the toes aren't pointed, the legs are lose and maybe look bent, but no fall.