WAG Scores not improving when repeating

[MaryA]

I am just wondering if anyone else sees this. I have noticed that, in general, I don't see a huge improvement in scores when girls repeat a level. I have friends whose daughters are repeating "new 4" (old 5) and their scores are in the same general range as they were last year. This past weekend, I saw a number of repeating level 7's, and of course many of them have added new skills since last season, but their scores were more-or-less the same as they were last season. And when the meet scores came out for the upper-level optionals, I saw the same thing. Just about all of them are doing the same level as they were last year and all scoring about the same. I don't think it's a coaching issue. Our coaches are very qualified and we have many girls on the team who score really well, and when they move up to the next level, they tend to score really well again. It seems as though each girl almost has a set range and it doesn't seem to matter if they move up or if they repeat... they're likely to remain within that score range. This goes against everything I would expect to see. If you are a level 4 and are scoring between 31-33 at every meet and you repeat the level, after 12 hours a week for 6 months of practicing the same skills, you would think they would start the new season well above where they were the previous season, but that's not what I'm seeing. I know I have read posts on here where someone says, "My DD had to repeat level 4 and her second season she won every meet and it gave her a huge confidence boost, so I'm really glad she did it!" Is that the norm? Or is what I'm noticing normal? Disclaimer: I have not done any statistical analysis on this... it's just the way it seems to me.

 

[cbifoja]

Our kids don't repeat levels often but the few times I've seen it, the scores have jumped up quite a bit. DD had a teammate last year who was a second year L5. First year of L5 she was in the 32 and 33s but as a second year, she was in 36 and 37s. For that gymnast, repeating was very beneficial. She's a girl who learns skills very slowly, must go at a speed she can handle, has some fear issues. But man, when she has the skill, I don't think I've ever seen anything to beautiful.

 

[profmom]

For optionals, it makes sense that if they are upgrading and adding harder skills within a level, they may be taking the same deductions even though the routines are harder, thus the same scores even though they are progressing.

I've seen a bit of that with compulsory boys, though. They get better and better and better, and then bam, they hit their own personal ceilings at a particular level. But the norm at DD's gym is that girls who repeat a level may have the occasional meet where they do the same or a little worse, but overall they do better than the previous year.

 

[EastCoastGymMom]

I've seen it both ways - girls who repeat and don't do significantly better and girls who repeat and are winning state championships with much higher scores their second year. I think the lower their scores are the first year, the better chance they have for a major improvement. For example, if they get 32s/33s and jump up to 36s/37s the second year. Doesn't seem quite as impressive if you go from 35s/36s up to 37s/38s.

 

[gymmomtoo]

I've seen it both ways too. I think you might be seeing gymnasts that have hit the level where they are capable--meaning repeating a second year of the level might fix some things, but won't change the major things about the gymnast--not everybody is cut out for gymnastics and spending one year or three years at a level won't significantly change that.

 

[LizzieLac]

I have seen it both ways as well, but I will say generally at our gym repeating a level really allows the child to uptrain and get past their stumbling blocks and score better. There are exceptions of course - the girl who can't get the upper level skills and sort of maxes out at level 7, but she loves gymnasics and is willing to do several years at that level.

 

[gymgal]

When I was first reading your post, I was thinking that this is probably pretty common for girls in the 35-36 range because I do think many middle-of-the-road girls hit a ceiling with their form and rhythm that can follow them through the levels. You can see this in girls who have multiple years of level 10, where they reach a plateau with their scores, despite having year after year with the same skills. But when you said that these girls are only getting 32-33s and haven't improved on those scores, that seems odd especially for compulsory where it's the same routine. That would indicate some really serious form issues, or not having the crucial skills for that level. I might understand optionals if they they were missing their SR skills and then 2nd year they have them but are really sloppy. Sometimes taking the deduction for doing a sloppy skill will give you the same score as taking the lower SR for deleting the skill. Or if they are swapping one sloppy skill for another - free hips to giants. But if they had their skills first year, I would think you would be seeing at least some improvement.

 

[thefellowsmom]

"My DD had to repeat level 4 and her second season she won every meet and it gave her a huge confidence boost, so I'm really glad she did it!"

This is my dd and might even be me you are quoting. But she scored very low the first season and had to compete the whole season without a BHS because of an elbow injury. She was also a young 7 year old. The second season she was scoring in the 37s regularly.

But I think she is a little bit of an exception as she is now starting the following season as a new level 5 and only one skill from solid level 7 routines, so she isn't a very good example of the norm I guess.

For her, I really believe it was maturity, not capability that forced the repeat. She needed time to come into her own and she did that and the confidence that came from it pushed her forward very quickly.

In general, at our gym most of the girls scores improve somewhat, but not quite so dramatically, if they repeat, like 1 to 2 points depending on what the first season scores were like. Like others have said, lower first year scores generally lead to more improvement.

We do have girls at our gym repeat occasionally for various reasons. It generally gives them time to push skills forward as the girls don't have to think so much about routines the second time around.

I think it can go many ways depending on why the gymnast is repeating. At the optional levels it may be that the repeat gives them a chance to upgrade their skills and now they are doing harder skills and therefore getting more deductions than if they had repeated the same skillset.

I also think in most cases that the attention to detail is the big catcher on score improvement. We had a set of girls that came out at the beginning of the season doing well (34/35 range) but then didn't improve much as they didn't focus on the little details that push the scores up. Other girls came out a little lower but steadily improved all those details meet after meet and the scores increased as the season went on and they ended up scoring in the 36/37 range and beating these other girls by the end of the season.

I would think this would also be the case season to season. Maybe every gymnast just has their limit of capability to improve on the little things that push routines form the 34/35 range to the 37 range and/or some coaches work more or are better at getting the girls to improve the details.

Interesting to see a pattern of not improving across the board, seems to me it would be a very individual thing. Who knows with this crazy sport

 

[UnoMas]

I've definitely seen it both ways too. It sure is discouraging for those repeaters who don't score better, though

 

[gymgymgymnast08]

I repeated level 5 and I improved a significant amount. I was literally last place at states my first year and my second year I was 2nd AA. I improved so much because I was terrible the first year. Most other people who repeated with me did not improve all that much, they just were not ready for level 6 after the first year.

I repeated level 8 and my second year I did a lot of harder skills and my scores improved as well.

I was in level 9 for what feels like a billion years and while I kept doing harder skills the next years, I don't think my scores improved all that much. If I hit all four events, I would place decently well and I don't think my places ever improved as the years went on because I still had all the same girls who had better form than me. My form improved drastically but I never had anywhere near the best form.
But really I think it all depends on the gymnast and the reason for repeating.

My one friend was in level 8 for 7 years I think? She just never went to level 9 and she improved like in the first year or two but once she was there for so long she did not improve anymore.

 

[gymgymgymnast08]

Another comment to add: Gymnastics isn't like many other sports where whoever crosses the finish line first wins or if the ball goes in the goal, its a goal. Scores change depending on the meet and depending on the judge so I wouldn't focus on scores so much as place.

 

[vagymmomma]

Agree it can go both ways. I think any year that there's a major change in routines (especially at compulsory level) it's difficult to make a comparison. As others have said, optionals definitely add skills so it's also harder to compare.

 

[mariposa]

Another thing is that gymnasts change each year, too. My daughter has repeated every level except 6. She always saw improvement overall the 2nd year, though never spectacular. She is repeating level 7 this year and I'm not sure she will see much improvement over her mid 35s from last year. She has had a huge growth spurt (which doesn't seem to be done yet) and is dealing with growth related knee pain, has lost skills and had to get them back and broke a toe over the summer as well. Also has lost several teammates, including her BFF. I think she'll be thrilled to be scoring the same as she did last year. She has always been a middle of the pack type gymnast and is always happy. Even with all the set backs the past 6 months she still wants to be in the gym all the time and is happy, though not currently progressing, I think it's just part of what is the roller coaster of gymnastics.

 

[Krystan]

My dd's gym generally repeats girls at L4 (previously L5). It helps them build strength and confidence, and after that they generally do one level a year. They almost always score/place better the second year, and keep up with that score level throughout. I feel like the extra year at compulsories allows them to solidify and perfect basics they will continue to use throughout their career and lets them get to their potential (or "ceiling" as some said above). My dd is repeating this year (at least for the first half), and she is scoring and placing significantly higher. She didn't do poorly last year, just about mid-range. This year (so far) she is excelling.

 

[luvmygymdtr]

This is such an interesting question to me, because I have this frustration with my own daughter. She hasn't been in the position yet to repeat a level. But last year, out of the gate, her first meet was her best, even with a fall on bars. She placed 1st AA. Then, her scores remained consistent throughout the season, never improving. But it appeared as though everyone else improved, because she got further and further down that podium and by state she wasn't even on it, where everyone else was posting their best scores of the season. I'm anxious to see if that trend continues.

 

[gymbini]

I think it probably has a lot to do with why they didn't perform well in the first place. Not every child matures at the same rate. Some gymnasts are very physically advanced at a young age. Others take longer for their bodies to grow and adapt, and it's hard to peak on every event at the same time. Usually you're good on one or two events and have to work on others.

My dd has hyperextension in her joints, especially her arms and shoulders. She rarely does shoulder flexibility at all because she is so flexible there, but her arms don't lock in what we would consider the normal straight-arm position. She has to balance her arms in that position, so she had the hardest time with her handstands when she was little because she wasn't strong enough to keep that position. She is also a light-weight even though she is all muscle because that's her body type. She had the hardest time with her handstand flat back vault on level 4, new level 3. She had no weight behind her when she hit the springboard and she literally could not do a vertical handstand. Her arms would crumble and it looked more like a forward roll. No surprise that her scores on vault were in the 6's. A year and a half later, she is much stronger, has better control over her body so her form is better and her vault scores were in the 9's. Her other scores improved as well, but what a difference her vault made to her AA scores. That's 3 points better than where she started, and what a boost to her self-esteem. She went from last place in vault to a gold medal at state in her age group. I told her that you can't expect to place that high all the time, but I was so happy for her.

I only have experience at the lower levels, but I noticed how some gyms tend to push girls ahead with the group when they are not truly ready to compete the skills. These girls seem to show the most improvement at our gym. Other girls who were already pretty good may get better if they're perfectionists, but they may also get bored with repeating the level and may not show that much overall improvement.

 

[iwannacoach]

It goes both ways and everywhere in between. The whys for the what are varied and numerous..... some good and some not so much. A few examples that make sense to me..........

A slow start with about the same score as the end of last season.....

Most of the time between seasons was spent up training with little concern for the coming season. The rationale is the kid can whip her routines into shape as the season progresses.

The kid is getting close to her own "glass ceiling" due to any factor that limits progress, like enthusiasm, fear, growing beyond her ability to keep up strength wise, and the obvious bane to girls gymnastics..... social needs and boys .

Injuries, illnesses, problems at home or school.

The reverse of these can cause the kid's scores to go up.

That's a start......

 

[beamer]

Gymgymgymnast08 hit the nail on the head: "My form improved drastically, but I never had anywhere near the best form."

And I feel over-qualified to also respond to MaryA's original post. It's form that is almost always the culprit in the scenario you are asking about. I know this because I have watched it, through four competition seasons now, with my own DD. She has never scored more than a 35 AA (even during a repeat year of old level 5) and probably never will. Because of her inability to be straight, tight, have pointed toes, etc. consistently she is "10th-ed to death" (justifiably) every meet and will never score as well as her teammates with that beautiful natural form. But dang! She loves gymnastics and could care less about AA scores and the podium. So we keep going.

So, while she definitely has had the basic skills necessary for each level, making these skills looks beautiful has been -- and will continue to be -- the scoring challenge.

Here's an example: Just this past weekend, DD had her second new L6 meet. There is a handstand in her beam routine -- the same handstand she has been doing on beam forever. She hit a beautiful, straight, tight handstand but...her feet did not come all the way together. I don't know what the deduction for that is, but there are so many small deductions like that in any given AA score! She got a 33.9 AA at this meet. She was happy!

 

[MaryA]

Thanks so much for your insight on this! It is very interesting to see the ways that girls progress through this sport... what holds them back and what pushes them to continue.

My daughter is SOOOO SLLOOOWWW to get her skills, but she has great form. Maybe that's why she's one whose scores always go up so much during meet season. When the season starts, she is still struggling with skills. Last year, level 7, she only competed floor and vault at the first meet. 2nd meet she competed AA and got about a 33. After that, she went up to a 35.something and then a 36.something. Her high score for the season (last meet before States) was a 36.725. So, of course, she got moved up to level 8. And now, here we are again, with her struggling to get her skills. I do wonder, though, if she will reach a point where the skills are just too much for her. When I hear about people who spend 7 years at level 8 because they just could never get the level 9 skills, I wonder if that will be my DD? I don't think the coaches will move her up again till she actually HAS the skills for the next level. The "will she-won't she" start to the competition season is stressful for me, so I can only imagine that it is more so for her and for her coaches!

Our current level 9's and 10's, who were consistently scoring in the 35-37 range up through level 8, now seem stuck in the 33-34 range. Maybe, once the skills get to that level, just having good form is not enough. I noticed that one of the new recruits at a local Div. I school had a level 10 States (I think it was States, I could be mis-remembering) AA score of over a 39. I just can't imagine it!

 

[gracyomalley]

Depends so much on why they repeat - DD repeated one half season before - old 5 - and her initial scores only went up about a point - but by the end of the 4 meets she was up another - and it gave her time learn the old 6 skills enough to get through that level in spring season.

This year she's repeating L7 - and I am worried her high 35s (which in our state was 5th overall) can't go very much higher here.....she has added giants, does a L8 series on beam, and is training all the level 8 stuff and has much of it, so likely it will be similar to the last time - scores up a bit but mostly really ready for level 8 next year. Her goal is to not repeat L8 and have 5 years to finish L9/10....who knows....

DS s are both repeating L5, older one with ALL bonuses now, and likely a boost in scores but more importantly he is uptraining most practices and will ease right into L6 and up now; younger one will likely not score much better because for him its all bent knees and flexed feet......

At DD gym they repeat mostly if they can't confidently compete the next level, not to get some magic score....same with the boys - have to have pretty much all the next level skills and a few bonuses to move up. (Its different at DD gym if the girl is older - then there is more creativity used to keep them progressing...)