Shootover - Special Requirement

[GymDad57]

Can an element performed (ie: shootover) fulfill more then one requirement (ie: bar change and flight element - Level 9 Bars) or is it a 1 to 1 relationship between elements and requirements.

Thank You In Advance for your Reply!!!

 

[gymdog]

Yes, a shootover fulfills both of those requirements simultaneously. Do your daughter or her coaches not understand the level 9 routine construction rules and standards?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

see what i mean?? i'm not sure whether to laugh or cry...

 

[gym monkeys mom]

Dunno and gymdog......

Sometimes parents want answers from someone other than their own DD's coach. Also, other times they just can get answers from thier coaches when they want due to coaches being busy.

I do not think it is that their coach does not know, but rather part of what chalbucket is for is to support each other.

I find some of your comments hurtful to the average parent just trying to better understand and support their kids sport.

I am sure you do not mean to be unkind but, to sometimes it comes across this way.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

The original poster has so many questions relating to routines, I think that is the issue. Sure seems like 'that' parent to me. If communication is such a problem at the gym, perhaps this parent should address the issue, not elements choices. You should be able to trust the coaches when they are taking care of your child for so many hours a week.

 

[gymnut1]

Aah but maybe this parent does not want to be 'that' parent at the gym and uses chalk bucket as an outlet to find or confirm answers they are desparate to ask but know make them look 'pushy' at the gym. Have you considered that? Be kind. You don't know why this poster asks so many questions.

I also find the attitude 'you should be able to leave everything to your coaches and trust your coaches on absolutely everything' very idealistic. In a perfect world yes absolutely. But we don't live in a perfect world and we are not perfect people. Coaches and parents both make errors of judgement. Some people make very big errors of judgement. I know there have been abuse cases in both America and England this past year involving gymnastics.

I am a coach (only a beginner one!) a parent and a school teacher. I don't want the parents to leave everything to me. I am not bringing up your child FOR you I am bringing up your child WITH you. I want a dialogue, communication, respect and trust. At school we are required to foster a triangle of communication between school, home and child. That relationship is very important and its effectiveness is scrutinised during school inspections. Gyms ought to do the same. Alot of 'those' parents would evaporate if they did!

Off soap box now! sorry.

 

[gymdog]

I do find it a little weird when parents want to know every detail of optional routine construction, but it's not specifically my problem. I wasn't born a coach (I'm not really even that old, in the interest of full disclosure...graduated high school and stopped gymnastics three years ago), so I've been on different sides of this relationship and have parents as well. I just don't know specifically what they're going to do with that info - offer the coaches advice? I have seen parents on here say they'll print it out for the coach...seemingly unsolicited. Honestly that makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't want to answer for those purposes. If I am not having a child do a certain skill, most likely it is because the child can't do that skill for specific reasons, and not because I have no one to ask for advice. I don't really think answering the question and asking another one is exactly "unkind." If there is another problem, perhaps we can offer some sort of suggestion to help address that. I am curious as to what the info is for - that is all - because it will affect how or whether or how detailed I answer in the future.

You don't know why this poster asks so many questions.

Nope. I asked. It will affect how I can answer.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

my intent is never to be rude or hurtful. provocative yes. i could have simply answered yes, a shoot over will 'kill 2 birds with 1 stone' as far as the requirement. these kinds of questions become redundant over time.

i have stated in other posts...that if a coach is coaching an athlete to the code of points, rather than to the athletes abilities, then that is where you find these 'searching' questions.

does the athlete have straight arms in all her bar work? does she have vigorous giants and clear hip to handstands executed with proper form, shape, & tap swing? does she have a proficient fly away? and generally, does she know how to swing?

if not, you have a question looking for an answer that could potentially harm this athlete. you may all assume that everyone knows what they're doing. and this includes the necessary knowledge required to coach uneven bars and boys high bar. i don't assume anything. and specifically, the question has to do with routine construction. this absolutely should be left to a coach and a parent has no business involving themselves in this process. there are too many things we don't know about the coach, the dad, and the athlete. this is why some of the questions searching for medical advice bother me also. and kids are asking those questions here that should be asked of their parents. if you give THEM some of this info, what do you expect that they are going to do with it? i think that some of you forget that children read and post here. and i've already received plenty of pm's and emails from coaches and kids at this site that are cheering me on as advocating for them and generally telling you "how things are in gymnastics" & "please don't hold back, parents and coaches need to hear it from someone else". so. there you have it. and until i'm asked to leave this site, i will continue to provide the opinions and info that are sometimes required and necessary. and don't confuse knowledge, experience, and wisdom with arrogance. i don't practice the latter.

therefore, the question/answer does not matter more than the safety of the athlete. it's not the typical "how do i get my splits" ???

and while i'm on this, recall that i was called rude in another post about a double turn on floor. they wanted to know the deductions. i guess i just think the parents become more knowledgeable over time. certainly the coaches do. the truth is, it doesn't matter what the deductions are when you have 2 to 4 other judges making a judgement call that is supposed to be objective. the truth is...only half the judges know what they're doing. 2/4 sets of eyes and 2/4 very different observations. and they'll blame it on where they were sitting and what angle they saw it from. and it's all crap. example: i had a male gymnast and a female gymnast compete triple fulls last season. at least one time for both athletes, the judges "missed" that it was a triple full and thought they were doubles. in 2009 no less.

yet, you want that knowledge for what? it won't change the world, its not in your CONTROL, and the answer won't affect how much time it takes for that gymnast to master the technique of the double turn [or anything else for that matter]. my point in that thread? doesn't matter what the deductions are...only that the gymnast trains to master the techniques and eventually perform beautiful gymnastics. and the gymnast has to be given the time without burdensome information that may negatively effect her, either from the parent, or from a coach that pounds out coaching cues that point to deductions AND NOT CORRECTIONS TO THE TECHNIQUE AND NUANCES OF A DOUBLE TURN.

so, indulge my provocative posts and you might learn something. why? cause i'm gonna tell you stuff that most of your coaches won't. i think i have taken considerable time doing so here on chalkbucket BECAUSE I'M OLD AND HAVE THE TIME. pineapple lump and gymdog seem to give it pretty good. they may be young, but i believe they get it. and i also believe, contrary to some of my colleagues, that parents should be told the truth no matter what. i would, and do, expect the same when its me.

and i don't accept that "coaches don't have the time" to answer your questions. if you have the time to post at chalkbucket then you have the time to send your coach an email asking these same questions. now, if they don't respond? you ponder those implications and how they relate to your children.

and finally, any education on gymnastics is to your benefit. my trepidation always lies with in whom has the information and what do they plan on doing with it. helicopter parents are a problem nationwide and has been published accordingly in all circles. and if you ask coaches what the worst part of their job is, and they felt that they could answer you honestly without consequences, what do you think are the 2 top answers? i'll leave that to what we'll see after i click on "post quick reply".

happy new year from my family to yours!

The Advocate

 

[GymDad57]

Happy New Year and Peace To All

First Happy New Year to All,

Thank you Gym Monkeys Mom for your understanding and support. I was simply using this board to attempt to understand some of the intricacies of the optional Code of Points for my personal understanding and to help support my daughter who I love very much. I thought that was the purpose here. And gymdog, I assure you I would never print a reply/comment and bring into gym to our coach.

I have learned some very informative info on this board and what I discuss here stays here and I hope to post future comments/questions which I feel I have kept to be very postive.

GymDad57

 

[gymdog]

And gymdog, I assure you I would never print a reply/comment and bring into gym to our coach.

I realize that example goes a little far and I don't expect you would - although I have seen that stated here and cringed. By this level I would not expect that. However, I think I would highlight what dunno noted about a "process" - that sometimes a program might make a decision to do something a certain way for a long term gain, at this level, even if it isn't the best thing in the short run. Because of this, to some of us who may have grown up in gymnastics, some of these questions can seem a little...I'm not sure if irrelevant is the word I'm really looking for, but it's the best I can come up with. I think sometimes people are asking specific questions, when the information that might be really important to them is not really that one specific question. Along these lines, perhaps for some, a thread about optional gymnastics and how to support a gymnast when the rules and standards get more confusing and difficult to follow could be constructive for many posters.

A lot of these rules change, even within cycles as we can see, and sometimes the issue with a routine or a series of a low scores might have nothing to do with the requirements or routine construction, or conversely it might have to do with those things rather than one deduction for a specific execution fault. I think it is really difficult, and maybe even somewhat impossible to learn the judging, difficulty, and execution standards for L9 and 10 question by question like this, although I support the intent, because gymnastics needs a lot of interested people.

My advice for people really interested in the intricacies of the code is that to be honest, if you really want to know - you're probably better served by getting involved in the judging community. Now this question I happened to know, but to be honest things come up when I'm coaching or talking to people and I have to look them up. Continuously throughout this entire cycle, I've been either competing or coaching (or both). But I don't know. Things are always changing, there's a lot to keep of track of from level to level, to be honest as a coach sometimes I see a routine and I can't necessarily judge it like a judge. I'm not a judge. I try as hard as I can to be aware of what their standards are obviously, but that's not really my job. It's my job to teach technically correct gymnastics following the USAG format...and hope the scores fall into line according to the gymnast readiness. I would make a terrible judge, since I can barely continually focus for the amount of time it would take to watch one floor routine, much less 8 hours of them. those would be some interesting scores. Not a pretty sight.

I hope that might better explain my viewpoint. Again, I think there is information that perhaps may better serve optional parents...such as resources, how to maintain good communication with coaches at this more involved level, how to support and communicate with the gymnast about her gymnastics, has your daughter ever experienced this, rather than just a lot of "how do I know if my daughter has enough Bs? does she if her routine is this?" Perhaps as an aside that might be a curiosity - and that's fine - but what I'm getting at is that as a main point, does that really help you guide your daughter? or is it just a way to get further bogged down in the details...scores, falls, pressure to have routines that are "competitive"...that can really negatively affect some adolescent girls? It's just a thought. I've been in the same position your daughters are in. I've also not had the easiest time navigating some of the psychological pressure. And perhaps I have a history of being unkind on this board, but I take this stuff seriously.

 

[Bobby]

I can see myself asking lots of questions similar to Gymdad57's in my future at CB.
As a former gymmie I'm a fan of the sport (regardless of whether my DD continues). My DD isn't even competing yet, but as a gym fan I'll be just as interested in watching the other competitors (in all divisions). And as such I'd really like to have enough of an educated understanding of what I'm watching to comprehend why different competitors score as they do.
The nicest coaches in the world are busy people. I don't doubt they'd be willing to take a little time every now and then to bring me up to date about my own DD's progress. But I doubt they'll ever have time to answer the general sort of broader questions that I'd still really like to know: a) to enhance my own enjoyment of watching; b) so that I can have an intelligent conversation with my DD who loves to talk incessantly about the sport, and is constantly surprised I don't know the answers well enough to make conversation (never mind answer her questions!! - and she's only 5!!).

 

[Flippers Mom]

From the viewpoint of a mom who never competed in gymnastics, I greatly appreciate the broad knowledge base that is provided on Chalk Bucket. I really learn loads from reading answers to questions I don't know enough to ask! Frankly, I don't know what is required for my daughters routines - wouldn't know a special requirement if it bit me in the behind - but the discussions here help me BEGIN to understand the scores my daughter receives. I often have aha moments (aha - I bet that Flipper has been loosing tenths of points for...). What may seem to be pushy parents trying to interfere may simply be parents like me simply trying to educate themselves - or it could be pushy parents trying to interfere. For what it's worth (and remember, you got it free).