WAG Spondyliothesis

[GymBeeMom]

Thank you all for your kind posts. DD put her heart into the gym. She is moving ahead with a positive attitude and realizes she is so much more than just a gymnast. I am mourning the loss of her dream but she is already looking ahead for a new one. To be 9 years old and so resilient...I am just in awe of her spirit and optimism. I can't wait to watch other young girls make the impossible possible, this sport is truly incredible at all levels. This was nobodys fault, just the luck of the draw...

 

[gymmutti]

GymBeeMom- best of luck to your DD as she forges a new path. She sounds like an amazing girl to have such an optimistic attitude! I hope she quickly finds something new in which to excel and be passionate about.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

please stay on board and let us know how she makes the adjustment and all that will come with that.

 

[Krystan]

I am SO sorry to hear this, GymBeeMom. It must be extra-hard to face this when you and your dd's lives were so focused on the sport. Your daughter sounds like a wonderful young lady with a very supportive, loving mother. Thank you so much for all your kind words and support of the other parents here on CB throughout your stay. I know it might be hard for you to read this board for a while, but we'd all love to hear updates on how your dd is doing. It sounds like the positive attitude that helped her gym career flourish will carry her through whatever her next adventure may be!

 

[Jenny]

You both have a great attitude. Good luck but I am sure you don't need it. She will do awesome!

 

[skschlag]

sorry to hear this! but she sounds like she is ready to take on the next task. I cannot wait to hear how she is doing. I agree with dunno, stick around so we can keep up with her next triumph!!

 

[MaryA]

No doubt her strong body and strong work ethic will serve her well as she takes on her next great adventure. Chalk Bucket group hug as you both get through this transition! :grouphug:

 

[Natasha]

Gymbeemom,
I am so sorry to hear this news. I am sure your mommy heart has been breaking as you have had to deal with this diagnosis. I am glad to hear your dd is handling it well. I wish her the best in her continued journey, and as others have said, we do hope you will be able to visit CB and keep us posted on her future endeavors. I will be looking forward to hearing about what new adventures she has.

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

I am so sorry to hear that your DD's gymnastics journey is getting cut short! You both seem to have a very positive outlook toward her next adventure! Keep all of the CB family up to date with her future endeavors! Oh and a big group hug too!!:grouphug:

 

[profmom]

Wow, Gymbeemom, I don't know what to say except that I am so very sorry to hear this. I know your DD is very strong and she'll take what she's learned from gymnastics with her forever. She's also very lucky to have you there by her side -- I am sure you'll do a great job of helping her through this big transition in her life. I hope she finds a new passion, and that you let us know where her road takes her next.

 

[GymmieC]

and i have been very clear and consistent with all of you regarding all the issues that come up when parents get concerned or scared by medical prognosis that comes up in gymnasts pretty regularly. from calcaneal epophysitis (Seevers), ostechondritis desecans in the elbows and knees (OCD and not to be confused with obsessive compulsive behavior), Osgood Schlatter, achilles tendonitis, osteochondrosis in the knees, pars defect syndrome, spondylosis (kissing vertebrae) positive ulnar variance (PUV or what used to be called ulnar radial variance) patellar tendonitis (the knee cap keeps kissing the tibial head or what's called "jumpers knee") and the list can go on and on.

but of all the things that gymnasts experience throughout their careers, the 1 thing that is just not worth it and can be potentially cause a crisis, it is Spondylolisthesis being the ONLY malady in where kids should not do gymnastics, diving, sometimes swimming depending on the stroke and football.

and if it is a kid only working out 8 hours a week (where you find most competitive gymnasts training 16 or more hours per week), this may be a threshold that this child's body/spine musculature can handle without accelerating or exacerbating the "what if". certainly, it takes more than 8 hours a week to perform most of the gymnastics that we see. and the young lady states that she can no longer do back walkovers. i'm certain that other skills will fall by the gymnastics wayside also as her body fully matures. but at some point, and in the vein of the old saying that "nothing lasts forever", this spinal condition is one where it is just not worth the risk. this is my opinion along with experience over several years of having dealt with this spinal condition.

I hear all of this, but I know my son's doctor who is associated with a very reputable institution is not giving my son the clear death sentence in wrestling. Without my saying anything, he started with we can get him back on the mat. I am not saying anything that I am for all of that, but he is very clear that if he follows treatment he can get back on. Even with surgery and a year recovery, " He can still return." I don't think he would put his practice into jeopardy. He is a research doc as well. So I don't know altogether that it -lilolisthesis is the end all...I speak wrestling not gymnastics. Although what brought my son success was his extreme flexibility to quickly get out of a crunch and get on top. His problem was more a birth occurrence. He was born with out a bone joint between L4/L5. In time his spine just began to separate that then caused the slippage of the disk...I am confused. Wrestling may have exasperated it but he is not sure. He has undergone extensive testing, MRI, CAT scans, etc. I am very over the top in "Do what needs to be done to see what is going on..." He goes back to doc in three weeks and we will know more...Don't worry dunno, I am not crazy (right) ; I am not about to just let him loose. My goal is for my son to stand upright for as long as he s alive!


And I also know another gymnast with almost same condition as my son, and she is back in gym pain free after surgery and I think a year recovery time as well.

 

[GymmieC]

no, it is not from pounding, etc; chicken...egg. the spondy comes first and it is widely believed that it is congenital. and in most cases where there has been no trauma, it is idiopathic.

so then, certain activities as i've mentioned, and then the pounding and so forth WILL exacerbate this condition. and of course, the more hours and more repetitions one takes can put you at considerable risk of the affected vertebrae above sliding off the one below. kinda like pushing a glass off a counter. when this happens, paralysis WILL take place.

My son's doc said he has researched the congenital factor and he has not found that to be true. No fetus, child is born with it. That is what he said. The factor that it is found in athletes is because of the pounding perhaps and they then experience discomfort. My son was born with out a bone joint between the L4/L5. With age and bone separation his disc began slipping. Some people have the -lilolisthesis and go undetected until old age, etc and then they feel the pain. I am only quoting my son's doc. And this is only one doc speaking. He treats professional athletes as well. We went to him because we wanted to hear what a sports doctor specializing in these types of back conditions thought. Again, I am not sold on it all because partof me is always in the "What if world..."

 

[GymmieC]

To the OP, you have a very positive attitude! And your DD sounds like she has one too! I pulled my son right away too. I had to go with my gutt, but he had other ideas and was not going to take no for an answer. He is not wrestling now because again I hear his doc, but I just don't know. Plus doc said stop now, wear Brace, and lets take it from there. He has not gone back because with his goal of wrestling for high school, he has to rest it and treat his back now. If he can go back with out pain in November then he will and he will rebrace and rest during off season. He was a year round wrestler before all of this happened to him.
I had to add this because even though I posted other comments to Dunno's comments, I don't want anyone thinking that I am the kind of parent who is nutty and wants my kid back in sport. I just have a kid that was melting due to his diagnosis and my pulling him initially cold turkey. I need my son to see that I am exploring options. Again, he has taken up music and I am nurturing that.

You are your DDs mom and you know exactly what she needs.


Dunno, please don't get upset with me I just needed to post what I have learned along my son's journey. I asked his doc about many of the things I heard from you before. I do have to trust him in part and truly his medical record does speak volumes to me.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

and the Docs don't know what happens to them after they leave the sport. and they don't coach them to know what limitations end up stopping them. i stand by what i stated. and maybe i can get Larry Nasser to get on here and give his opinion. he too believes that this diagnosis puts you out of gymnastics. we are not wrestling and i don't know the level of the female gymnast you are speaking of. but within a reasonable degree of professional certainty, this gymnast will not become what she might have had she not had this condition. and i assume this child had fusion. doing gymnastics is a very bad idea. up in the cervicals not so bad. but thoracic and lumbar fusion make you normal. gymnastics is not normal. do you have any idea what could happen to this girl if she were to land with locked knees and her shoulders slightly in back of her heels and stomach slightly forward? like on practically every landing you can think of when performing certain skills?? of course you don't, you're a parent. I KNOW what could happen because i am a gymnastics coach. and this coach wouldn't allow this girl to do gymnastics in MY gym. the risks are just much too great.

after my cervical fusion (3 levels) my Doc says no more ladders and no more motorcycles. gee, i wonder why that might be. you certainly wouldn't find me doing gymnastics if i can't get up on a ladder or ride my motorcycles. i could re-break my neck. hadware is NOT the same as what you are born with. and i'm not sure why i'm even beating a dead horse here.

and i'm not upset. i work in gymnastics. that speaks volumes also.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

My son's doc said he has researched the congenital factor and he has not found that to be true. No fetus, child is born with it. That is what he said. The factor that it is found in athletes is because of the pounding perhaps and they then experience discomfort. My son was born with out a bone joint between the L4/L5. With age and bone separation his disc began slipping. Some people have the -lilolisthesis and go undetected until old age, etc and then they feel the pain. I am only quoting my son's doc. And this is only one doc speaking. He treats professional athletes as well. We went to him because we wanted to hear what a sports doctor specializing in these types of back conditions thought. Again, I am not sold on it all because partof me is always in the "What if world..."

congenital means present from birth. so i'm not sure what you're saying. if your son was born "without a bone joint between L4/L5" that is precisely what congenital means. idiopathic means no known cause. so then, if you weren't in a car crash when you were pregnant, or son was not in a car crash post delivery, then what he is born with is not only congenital but idiopathic also. so maybe you can clarify that?

and if you read my post, i said chicken egg. this means 'which came first'. if you are not born with this condition it would take an extreme injury to cause it. so then, you can pound all you want in gymnastics and it WILL NOT cause this condition unless the condition is dormant with no symptoms. if this was not correct, all kids that do gymnastics would have this condition from pounding. this concept is called circular logic and it occurs in a relatively small percentage of kids that do gymnastics. gymnastics does not cause it. understand? if you have this condition, gymnastics will bring it out very young. if you have a traumatic injury to the spine, you can suffer this condition. but if your like most kids in gymnastics, they can pound away to their hearts content and will never suffer this condition all things being equal.

 

[GymmieC]

congenital means present from birth. so i'm not sure what you're saying. if your son was born "without a bone joint between L4/L5" that is precisely what congenital means. idiopathic means no known cause. so then, if you weren't in a car crash when you were pregnant, or son was not in a car crash post delivery, then what he is born with is not only congenital but idiopathic also. so maybe you can clarify that?

and if you read my post, i said chicken egg. this means 'which came first'. if you are not born with this condition it would take an extreme injury to cause it. so then, you can pound all you want in gymnastics and it WILL NOT cause this condition unless the condition is dormant with no symptoms. if this was not correct, all kids that do gymnastics would have this condition from pounding. this concept is called circular logic and it occurs in a relatively small percentage of kids that do gymnastics. gymnastics does not cause it. understand? if you have this condition, gymnastics will bring it out very young. if you have a traumatic injury to the spine, you can suffer this condition. but if your like most kids in gymnastics, they can pound away to their hearts content and will never suffer this condition all things being equal.

what my son's doc said is that neither spondylisis or spondylilolisthesis is NOT congenital. The -lilolisthesis refers to the slippage of the discs. My son's congenital defect allows for the slippage because discs have nothing stopping them from slipping. Most cases of this do come from fractures that do not heal and then the discs begin to slip. In gymnastics I'd imagine the bending and overuse could exasperate condition but it is not certain. How he explained it to me is that because he is a wrestler and is quite flexible his condition may have occurred because of the pounding and wear and tear. He may have never had pain and although he was still born without that bone joint never have experienced pain hence never being diagnosed. There are just to many things that could be considered. The reason this condition is detected in childhood/teens is because most kids are athletes and pain is almost certain in all sports. Parents take child to doctor and then they are diagnosed.
This doc does remain in my son's life after sport if we choose that. Again, he is a research doc that does a lot of research on this same condition. He basis his practice on what he is able to arrive at by way of research. Dunno, you know I see you as very knowledgeable in many many things. I have come to you a lot. I am merely trying to add what I have learned though all of this due to what my son has experienced. OP asked is this the end? My son's doc is treating his condition if it gets better, great; if not we will look at other avenues. Every body is different. What works for one will not always work for the other, but it just might...I will not say anything more. Because my intention is not to incite anything. You asked me to clarify, so I did. But if it is okay, I am done.

 

[GymmieC]

Thanks! I am relieved!!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Congenital Spondylolisthesis

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/back_pain/hic_spondylolisthesis.aspx

http://www.neurospine.org/Spondylolisthesis_2.html

 

[Deleted member D3987]

that's all.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

what my son's doc said is that neither spondylisis or spondylilolisthesis is NOT congenital. The -lilolisthesis refers to the slippage of the discs. My son's congenital defect allows for the slippage because discs have nothing stopping them from slipping. Most cases of this do come from fractures that do not heal and then the discs begin to slip. In gymnastics I'd imagine the bending and overuse could exasperate condition but it is not certain. How he explained it to me is that because he is a wrestler and is quite flexible his condition may have occurred because of the pounding and wear and tear. He may have never had pain and although he was still born without that bone joint never have experienced pain hence never being diagnosed. There are just to many things that could be considered. The reason this condition is detected in childhood/teens is because most kids are athletes and pain is almost certain in all sports. Parents take child to doctor and then they are diagnosed.
This doc does remain in my son's life after sport if we choose that. Again, he is a research doc that does a lot of research on this same condition. He basis his practice on what he is able to arrive at by way of research. Dunno, you know I see you as very knowledgeable in many many things. I have come to you a lot. I am merely trying to add what I have learned though all of this due to what my son has experienced. OP asked is this the end? My son's doc is treating his condition if it gets better, great; if not we will look at other avenues. Every body is different. What works for one will not always work for the other, but it just might...I will not say anything more. Because my intention is not to incite anything. You asked me to clarify, so I did. But if it is okay, I am done.

now you're saying it was congenital. i'm off to go have a stiff nightcap...

Dunno looks upward and softly says 'help me'...