Coaches Strange corrects given by other coaches

[CoachTodd]

I just had to put this one out there and get some thoughts on it.
I have 2 girls that come to me for semi private lessons on back handsprings and eventually more difficult skills. Neither of these girls are small. They are actually bigger than I am. I was spotting one of the girls through her back handsprings when I noticed she was sagging in the support phase of the skill. I told her to keep her arms behind her ears and stay tight. She told me her other coach (at a different gym) told her she needed to...
"SHRUG MORE"
Does anyone else think this is most likely one of the most counter productive corrections you could give someone in a back handspring?

 

[AmandaLynn]

I've noticed that some coaches substitute the word "shrug" for "block". If you are teaching the correct arm position, I suppose it could work... but lots of people don't focus on getting the arms behind the ears before that shrug/block takes place and then you end up with those closed shouldered, bent armed, reverse blocking type of back handsprings because they can't shrug/block properly due to their arms not being in the correct position to do so.

 

[gymcoach26]

Is this other coach a cheer coach? haha

 

[Deleted member D3987]

maybe the shrug is speak for i dunno what the heck you're doing and just hasn't told his athlete that as of yet...

 

[BlairBob]

until the gymnast or tumbler has basic competent HS strength, asking them to block is like peeing into the wind. if they are bending their arms and it's not a prioproceptive issue, they simply need to be stronger in their arms and until they are strong in their arms and solid in their middle they aren't gonna give you a block.

you can dumb down some blocking drills if you want against the board or on trampoline or a spring board, but...

 

[coachmolly]

I can also see it being a strange way of phrasing "block." But older kids, especially ones who have progressed enough to be working on bhs, should understand "block" without substituting incorrect terminology. My guess would be that the coach sees what she's doing wrong (sagging in the middle), but has no idea how to correct it. Because, like BlairBob said, blocking (or shrugging ) isn't gone to mean a darn thing to a kid that doesn't have the base strength to actually do it.
I'm currently working 1 night/week at an all star cheer gym where they are attempting to teach kids with no awareness of basic body positions, proper handstand technique, or adequate strength bhs. So I won't even get started on my issues with the cheer bhs process. Glad they decided to seek help from you, they are certainly in MUCH better hands now!

 

[AmandaLynn]

until the gymnast or tumbler has basic competent HS strength, asking them to block is like peeing into the wind. if they are bending their arms and it's not a prioproceptive issue, they simply need to be stronger in their arms and until they are strong in their arms and solid in their middle they aren't gonna give you a block.

I agree with this. I feel like the tumbling classes and the cheer teams are the most guilty of this. These programs (at least in my area) are typically kids thar have little - to no - gymnastics experience and want to be able to do a back handspring. So rather than begin with basic body positions and strength and work slowly toward a back handspring, the instructors spot the kids through a billion disgusting looking back handsprings until the kids get to a point where they can eventually chuck it over and not land on their head and die. Though it still typically looks like they may do just that more often than not.

And That is precisely why I despise helping with the tumbling classes. The kids don't get anywhere and I go home with a sore shoulder. Given a choice, I'll stick with my artistic gymnasts, thankyouverymuch.

 

[CoachTodd]

The particular girl in question is strong enough to do the skill wrong. That's part of what bothers me. The two girls I work with that their school forces them to go to a specific cheer gym every week are both injured now due to strange things like this. The first one has a back injury and the other now has a broken nose. I've seen more injuries in 8 months of working with cheerleaders than I've seen 9 1/2 years of coaching gymnastics.

 

[AmandaLynn]

The particular girl in question is strong enough to do the skill wrong. That's part of what bothers me. The two girls I work with that their school forces them to go to a specific cheer gym every week are both injured now due to strange things like this. The first one has a back injury and the other now has a broken nose. I've seen more injuries in 8 months of working with cheerleaders than I've seen 9 1/2 years of coaching gymnastics.

So true. I see that we are in the same state. I wonder if that has anything to do with it, or if cheer tumbling is like that everywhere.

 

[gymdog]

No one here has seriously ever used the terminology "shrug your shoulders"? Not uncommon or strange to me. Probably shouldn't be the only correction but eye roll worthy, really? If this rates as that questionable (personally I don't think it's questionable at all, unless I'm missing something, although context for a correction is everything) I don't even know how I could make it through the day with some of the stuff I hear.

 

[AmandaLynn]

No one here has seriously ever used the terminology "shrug your shoulders"? Not uncommon or strange to me. Probably shouldn't be the only correction but eye roll worthy, really? If this rates as that questionable (personally I don't think it's questionable at all, unless I'm missing something, although context for a correction is everything) I don't even know how I could make it through the day with some of the stuff I hear.

As I mentioned earlier, I think that I understand where the term "shrug" is coming from, but if the support phase of the skill is seriously saggy, then the shrug action is not going to make a bit of difference. And that is where I'm thinking that everyone's issue is. Not so much with the terminology itself, but with the fact that the coach didn't seem to know what to say to correct the skill, so they just said something... anything. kwim?

 

[CoachTodd]

I personally can't think of any time during a back handspring that you would want anyone to shrug.
I can see shrugs as a strength exercise but I really don't see a place for it in any tumbling skill done correctly. All it does is mess up the timing of the block if you try to shrug.

 

[coachmolly]

I think I've probably heard, and even used, "shrug your shoulders" when teaching the concept of block to smaller kids who just aren't getting it (like they don't understand they can get support/strength from their shoulders instead of their elbows), but I would think that better corrections/drills are available for in the middle of a bhs, because in that situation, I don't see the purpose of shrugging.

 

[gymdog]

The "shrug" or push wouldn't necessarily be when the hands hit the ground, but as the body lines up at the vertical (basically the snap up phase). Maybe I just have crazy ideas though. Obviously it isn't a drill. I can't find the link to video, but I teach it a way (that I got the idea from coaches at Colorado Aerials, to give credit)...basically a pull arch to tall handstand drill, then applying that to the snap over from BHS going off something elevated first (more time for hollow snap, basically they have to go up the hill rather than down like usual). Obviously they need to use their core strength and not close their shoulders. The arch-line up tall (includes push tall through shoulders) at vertical using hips/core has been tremendous in fixing the kinds of problems described in kids I've worked with who didn't have great BHS habits to start with. Also if the kid is small enough and tight enough, grabbing one arm to pull them back as they jump back, keep holding it to pull them up, and over. But this isn't an effective spotting technique for larger athletes unless they're 100% on the skill.

 

[gymdog]

Video link: BH-spring Blocking Drill.wmv - YouTube

I suppose it could be semantics, anyway I consider pushing tall through the shoulders shrugging, as in not having much open space there.

 

[coachmolly]

The "shrug" or push wouldn't necessarily be when the hands hit the ground, but as the body lines up at the vertical (basically the snap up phase). Maybe I just have crazy ideas though. Obviously it isn't a drill. I can't find the link to video, but I teach it a way (that I got the idea from coaches at Colorado Aerials, to give credit)...basically a pull arch to tall handstand drill, then applying that to the snap over from BHS going off something elevated first (more time for hollow snap, basically they have to go up the hill rather than down like usual). Obviously they need to use their core strength and not close their shoulders. The arch-line up tall (includes push tall through shoulders) at vertical using hips/core has been tremendous in fixing the kinds of problems described in kids I've worked with who didn't have great BHS habits to start with. Also if the kid is small enough and tight enough, grabbing one arm to pull them back as they jump back, keep holding it to pull them up, and over. But this isn't an effective spotting technique for larger athletes unless they're 100% on the skill.

Your post makes total sense, and I think it really is a matter of semantics. When I thought "shrug" in the middle of a bhs I was thinking less of a block and more of a full out shoulder shrug if that makes sense. Kind of like pushing through your shoulders and then kind of "collapsing" them as you would if you just shrugged your shoulders while standing.

 

[CoachTodd]

Your post makes total sense, and I think it really is a matter of semantics. When I thought "shrug" in the middle of a bhs I was thinking less of a block and more of a full out shoulder shrug if that makes sense. Kind of like pushing through your shoulders and then kind of "collapsing" them as you would if you just shrugged your shoulders while standing.

This is the exact interpretation the kid had thus it completely messed up her handsprings. She has the upper and lower body strength for them but still needs core work. She's coming along now that I explained to her what I think the other coach meant.