WAG TOPs Hopes Elite results - secret?

[sevenatenine2]

This is the second year I've seen threads that seem to really criticize coaching and or parenting decisions of some of CBs best athlete's. I don't get it. So you have a Hopes Athlete who might call themselves an Elite. Big deal. If you're an Elite, I can see being a little miffed. If not, so what? They've worked to compete at a prestigious competition and if nobody knows what Hopes is, Elite is a word that will give them an idea.

If a kid spends three years at Hopes instead of Level 7-8-9. who cares? It's not my kid. I also see the point that having experience in Hopes with the awesome competition and awesome coaches will help this child shine at a later date.

I don't understand all the hoopla regarding it.

 

[bogwoppit]

I had hoped this thread would stay off that path and stay on the "where the heck are the results" topic.

But it is USAG who seem to make it very clear that Hopes is not Elite. Maybe it would be better if they called it Pre-Elite, to give it a clearer descriptor. Like Pre Team.

The system is a bit weird to me, but then I am from Canada and we do not operate the same way.

 

[lovofu]

There are always criticisms of things other don't understand. For Sophia...HOPES was a great way to dip her broken toe in the water of the "past JO" world. She is not ready for Jr Elite and this path made sense for her.

 

[Sidnito]

A number of coaches were directed to skip Tops and focus on Hopes. If there is potential per the national team training staff; why not try if the athlete and coach are willing to put in the work and effort?

It’s also important to note that the set up at an elite qualifier is very different from JO. They warm up all events 30 minutes each before competing a 30 second touch. I saw more than a few girls who had great warm ups fall while competing. Competing is a process. Just like in JO, the first meet at a new level sometimes does not go well, especially with connection bonus and deductions. You keep trying and by the end of the season hopefully you find success.

The point is you have to start somewhere why not the Top/Hopes program? Many of the current National team went through the same program.

 

[wandrewsjr]

This is the second year I've seen threads that seem to really criticize coaching and or parenting decisions of some of CBs best athlete's. I don't get it. So you have a Hopes Athlete who might call themselves an Elite. Big deal. If you're an Elite, I can see being a little miffed. If not, so what? They've worked to compete at a prestigious competition and if nobody knows what Hopes is, Elite is a word that will give them an idea.

If a kid spends three years at Hopes instead of Level 7-8-9. who cares? It's not my kid. I also see the point that having experience in Hopes with the awesome competition and awesome coaches will help this child shine at a later date.

I don't understand all the hoopla regarding it.

I don't think you meant it this way, but I can see how this sentiment could rub some people the wrong way, the assumption that the competition and the coaches are more awesome at Hopes competitions than at JO competitions. A coach can enter a kid at a JO competition, or the same coach could enter a kid in a Hopes competition. The coach doesn't have to have any higher level of expertise to enter kids in Hopes competitions. And some of the most awesome coaches in the country only coach JO.

I also think some are just truly curious...why Hopes instead of competing 9 or 10? A gymnast like Sophia has already had success at level 10, so it is easier to understand. But for the gymnasts who have not had much experience at 9 or 10 yet, I think some are really just truly curious why Hopes?

 

[bookworm]

I had hoped this thread would stay off that path and stay on the "where the heck are the results" topic.

But it is USAG who seem to make it very clear that Hopes is not Elite. Maybe it would be better if they called it Pre-Elite, to give it a clearer descriptor. Like Pre Team.

The system is a bit weird to me, but then I am from Canada and we do not operate the same way.

Back in the day when my oldest did elite, the kids who are now doing HOPES were called pre-elite...and then this whole new HOPEs thing came out , and poof, no more pre-elite....which in my book, made more logical sense...

 

[wandrewsjr]

Back in the day when my oldest did elite, the kids who are now doing HOPES were called pre-elite...and then this whole new HOPEs thing came out , and poof, no more pre-elite....which in my book, made more logical sense...

Yep, went pre-elite, junior elite, senior elite. Did they just wast to make sure that the world "elite" wasn't anywhere in the equation? As bogwoppit said, it does seem to be USAG that doesn't want the word elite used when talking about gymnasts competing Hopes.

 

[Sidnito]

Baby steps, I think hopes is a great program to allow girls to see their potential in this sport. Nothing wrong with that is there?

 

[bogwoppit]

Baby steps, I think hopes is a great program to allow girls to see their potential in this sport. Nothing wrong with that is there?

Definitely not. Just more clarity on the process and the results and the camps is helpful, and interesting.

I guess threads like this do help with that a little bit. Plus people in the system actually contributing their experiences really helps.

 

[Jenny]

Back in the day when my oldest did elite, the kids who are now doing HOPES were called pre-elite...and then this whole new HOPEs thing came out , and poof, no more pre-elite....which in my book, made more logical sense...

We have a hopes division called espoirs which comes before juniors . They are 12 and 13 too.

 

[Jenny]

It’s also important to note that the set up at an elite qualifier is very different from JO. They warm up all events 30 minutes each before competing a 30 second touch. I saw more than a few girls who had great warm ups fall while competing.

All our elite pathway competitions warm up like this so from age 7 or 8 onwards. Obviously you train it in the gym to prepare for it . However our first warm up round is only 10 or 15 minutes a piece for the whole group. 30 mins would be a massive luxury.

And surely gymnasts often have good warm up then fall on real one whatever the warm up system. They do here anyway lol.

 

[Canadian_gym_mom]

I had hoped this thread would stay off that path and stay on the "where the heck are the results" topic.

But it is USAG who seem to make it very clear that Hopes is not Elite. Maybe it would be better if they called it Pre-Elite, to give it a clearer descriptor. Like Pre Team.

The system is a bit weird to me, but then I am from Canada and we do not operate the same way.

But this whole thing completely reminds me of how the Canadian Pre Novice stream used to be. Shrouded in secrecy, documents and manuals forbidden to be released to the public. Even Novice somewhat regarding qualifying scores, etc.

Only the last couple of years did they start publishing info on the gymcan site.

 

[GYM0M]

I also think some are just truly curious...why Hopes instead of competing 9 or 10? A gymnast like Sophia has already had success at level 10, so it is easier to understand. But for the gymnasts who have not had much experience at 9 or 10 yet, I think some are really just truly curious why Hopes?

Why HOPES, instead of L9 or L10? For my kid, and I'm sure that it's not this way for most, but my kiddo tried to score out of L9, but the bars just went all wrong that day. But the elements in her beam routine had to be changed bc the difficulty was too high for L9. In HOPES, she can do her most difficult routines and still kinda suck at bars.

 

[bogwoppit]

But this whole thing completely reminds me of how the Canadian Pre Novice stream used to be. Shrouded in secrecy, documents and manuals forbidden to be released to the public. Even Novice somewhat regarding qualifying scores, etc.

Only the last couple of years did they start publishing info on the gymcan site.

Exactly, it was always as clear as mud, you could never find anything at all. It has improved a lot lately.

For USAG the Hopes and elite qualifying info is out there for sure. Just results are oddly protected. I would like to think we have helped to encourage more openness. LOL

 

[Jenny]

Why HOPES, instead of L9 or L10? For my kid, and I'm sure that it's not this way for most, but my kiddo tried to score out of L9, but the bars just went all wrong that day. But the elements in her beam routine had to be changed bc the difficulty was too high for L9. In HOPES, she can do her most difficult routines and still kinda suck at bars.[/QUOTE

It is actually very very common for younger ones to be very ahead on beam and behind on bars. It is the way I see it most of the time in the gym. That is why *most* coaches get all excited when they see a little one swing bars well. But whichever way round it is, you need all four pieces in the end to do anything. And more than anything you need great technique at the basics to enable continued progression after puberty. And that comes from really careful preparation over a long period of time in the gym. I think that is what the compulsory elite routines are trying to encourage.

 

[CoachMeg]

I really don't understand the point in rushing to Hopes or Elite if you're barely an optional? I mean, truly, I don't get it. If you're a sufficient L9, and your goal is beyond JO, Hopes makes great sense to get exposure in "Elite" world. L10 makes even more sense. But L7 or L8....why?? There's so much more to learn and master. Why just focus on learning higher difficulty when you haven't mastered optional basics? Being able to do clean and well executed optional routines is going to serve a gymnast more than just pushing them through the system. I'm not trying to be mean, I really want to understand the thought process behind this and maybe I can't understand a different point of view?

 

[CoachMeg]

Why HOPES, instead of L9 or L10? For my kid, and I'm sure that it's not this way for most, but my kiddo tried to score out of L9, but the bars just went all wrong that day. But the elements in her beam routine had to be changed bc the difficulty was too high for L9. In HOPES, she can do her most difficult routines and still kinda suck at bars.

If a gymnast is not able to do L9 bars....how is she going to be able to do Hopes bars? If she has higher difficulty in another event, let her train it on the side until her other events have caught up. There's nothing wrong with letting her go out and repeat L8 for more consistency on bars and letting her kill it on the other 3 events. The way I look at it, a gymnast's level should be determined by their weakest event...because gymnastics is a 4 event sport.

 

[GYM0M]

If a gymnast is not able to do L9 bars....how is she going to be able to do Hopes bars? If she has higher difficulty in another event, let her train it on the side until her other events have caught up. There's nothing wrong with letting her go out and repeat L8 for more consistency on bars and letting her kill it on the other 3 events. The way I look at it, a gymnast's level should be determined by their weakest event...because gymnastics is a 4 event sport.

Her Hopes bars and her L9 are basically the same thing. She CAN do the bars, on a good day. And we can agree to disagree. I feel that if HER goal is beyond L10, she gains much more by competing in HOPES. (Not trying to be argumentative bc I do think she's been rushed, but not to the point that I am as flabbergasted as some of you, lol!). This is the reasoning that I have came up with: she wants to be an elite gymnast one day. If she gets there, the pressure of competing in that arena under those circumstances will probably rattle her. If she's competing for the experience, wouldn't HOPES provide more suitable experience? Especially with the big skills? The more she does them in comp, the more confident she'll feel, right? And with her bars, she is also learning how to maintain her composure after a bad set. Now, on the flip side, she could have competed L8, been at least moderately successful, but would then have to devote practice time to try to catch all those tiny tenths that make a huge difference. Time that IMO is better spent working on skills that she needs to attain HER goals. L9 would have provided better leeway for higher skills, but again presents the same obstacles as HOPES so why not gain the experience in the arena more comparable to her ultimate goals? But that's just how I rationalize it in my head. For the REAL reasons, you'd have to ask her coaches, but good luck, they are a lot like the scoring in question in this thread.....secretive. They haven't offered me a detailed 10 year plan, heck, I barely get a tentative itinerary month to month..... If they let me in on their ultimate game plan, I'll let ya know! Lol!

 

[Fijiwater]

 

[CoachMeg]

Her Hopes bars and her L9 are basically the same thing. She CAN do the bars, on a good day. And we can agree to disagree. I feel that if HER goal is beyond L10, she gains much more by competing in HOPES. (Not trying to be argumentative bc I do think she's been rushed, but not to the point that I am as flabbergasted as some of you, lol!)

I respect your answer 100%. I've seen your posts since I've joined CB and it's obvious your gymnast is very talented, I'm not questioning that. I guess I just have a different coaching philosophy and that's okay. Gymnastics is very much an individual journey and every child is different and works in different ways.

Now, on the flip side, she could have competed L8, been at least moderately successful, but would then have to devote practice time to try to catch all those tiny tenths that make a huge difference. Time that IMO is better spent working on skills that she needs to attain HER goals.

Now this I really don't understand. I've seen coaches use this philosophy when moving extra talented kids through the compulsory system because they "don't want to waste time" on the monotonous routines and picky details of the text. And I can understand that - although I do think there is something redeeming about every compulsory level. But with optionals...? Those "tiny tenths" are merely imperfections. There are no written routines, they are customized to the individual gymnast's strengths and weaknesses once they hit optionals. So to me that's just kind of a cop out answer. There is definitely merit to perfecting skills and routines and having a gymnast dialed in on perfecting their execution. The gym I coach as is heavily based on technique and execution. Gymnasts are not rushed through levels ever - no exceptions. We have a philosophy that all our gymnasts should be competing at a level that is 70% of their ability. Meaning, they should have 30% of the next level skills to compete at the prior level. Not just barely making the skills for their current level. All our optionals that have had to repeat a level, it has only bettered them. Either through confidence or just their overall technique. I find kids that are rushed through the system (from neighboring gyms) that show LOADS of potential, end up quitting either due to getting tired/burnt out or from injury/overuse. [About 2 years ago we had an 11 year old L8. She had so much raw ability and really could have gone quite far in the sport. We were going to have her repeat L8 to train more for L9 (bar releases still needed work). Her parents and her only saw the "now" and not the big picture, so they ended up moving to a nearby gym. That gym obviously saw her potential and tried rushing her through L9 and L10 in one season. She ended up blowing out her knee on a tumbling pass during practice and her gym career is pretty much done. Extremely sad.] I'm not trying to sound harsh. I know you probably have little control in how she is trained at your current gym. And I totally respect how much you trust her coaches. And I'm sure they know what they're doing. But I just think that pushing a kid too fast too soon could be damaging to their career. Bad habits can form SO quickly and can ultimately become irreversible.

Again, please don't take this the wrong way. This ^ is not an attack on you or anything. I've seen you post videos of her routines before (I think floor?) and she really is a tiny ball of talent. So much potential. But I just think there's more to this sport than just difficulty after difficulty after difficulty. Where's the finesse, or the attention to all the picky details? To me that's just as important, if not more. Good form and technique will always win over just chucking hard skills.

Anyway, good luck with your DD. I truly hope she gets where she wants to!!