Work Ethic Internal or External?

[Coacharella]

I was wondering about work ethic.

Athlete A:
Super talented gymnast. A Natural. Picks up skills quickly. Works only mediocre though when coach is not directly supervising. Plays around alot at station work. Boasts about getting skills before other teammates.Takes corrections about half the time. Does not always push herself as much as she could (conditioning). Sloppy a lot of the time if not reminded on form.

Athlete B:
Very hard worker. Listens to each correction and takes it. Works until she is red in the face no matter if she is "getting the skill", or trying to get the skill. Attentive listener. Great work at stations. Behind on skills compared to teammates. Always tight legs, pointed toes, good form to the best of her ability.

Now, is work ethic mostly an intrinsic thing, coaches/parents/gymnasts? Do you think that it is possible for Athlete A to ever develop the work ethic of Athlete B from external motivation or is this mostly inborn? Any thoughts?

 

[Linsul]

I think the type 'A' in your post just hasn't discovered her motivation yet. If everything comes easy, why work? I think a work ethic for those kids just takes a challenge to discover it. It's hard to instill a sense of work and patience in a gymnast that just isn't living it. It can be a hard thing to wrap a kids head around a concept they haven't experienced. Sometimes they discover the will to work when they hit a wall in progression and learn that effort applies to them with zero outside help. If they are confused or discouraged at suddenly having to 'work for it' I think positive motivation and guidance can get them through it. The experience itself (I would think) should be enough to tone them down with outright bragging. If not, a gentle reminder that they themselves are in the position of working for what they want should be an eye opener.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

internal.....................

 

[triptwister]

I agree with both Linsul and dunno with the following slant...

Gymnast "A" owns a reactive versus proactive personality. She is simply reacting to the competition in her environment. This type of gymnast works at a minimum to stay ahead of the pack.

At some point if the environment changes or the scope of environment changes and she sees that she requires a more concerted level of effort to stay ahead of the pack then she will react and meet the challenge. When the challenges reach a point of difficulty that she feels a need to apply herself beyond the external influences of her immediate surroundings including the coaching then she will take ownership of her progress. Before this the work ethic is external. After this the work ethic is internalized. Once the work ethic is internalized then her personality changes or balances out to a proactive mindset.

Day in day out competition stimulates this type of kid. Base the coaching on finding ways to challenge her competitive spirit. Change her scope to beyond what is in your gym or immediate surroundings. Your goal is to get her to internalize her work ethic.

 

[LizzieLac]

Primarily internal. But those without the natural internal drive can be taught the value of hard work, or may change their approach when they see what hard work can achieve.

 

[Linsul]

I agree with dunno as well, internal drive and will to work is the only thing that will get a gymnast to level 9, 10, and up. External will just isn't enough to get them through those levels. A very talented girl could probably be an excellent level 7, maybe even 8. If they haven't discovered by then that they are self motivated, the higher optional levels and beyond would be a struggle that talent just isn't enough for.

 

[Coacharella]

I agree that at a young age, the Type A personality is still connecting work ethic and results. When things come naturally for the first little while as a gymnast, they probably have not yet grasped the idea that sometimes certain things will require harder work.

 

[Coacharella]

I agree with both Linsul and dunno with the following slant...


Day in day out competition stimulates this type of kid. Base the coaching on finding ways to challenge her competitive spirit. Change her scope to beyond what is in your gym or immediate surroundings. Your goal is to get her to internalize her work ethic.

Good point. Any methods you have used in the past that you would reccomend to challenge a competitive spirit?

 

[gymdog]

You see this mostly at the lower levels because outside of talent there is a significant amount of discomfort and pain associated with progressing in gymnastics. That's just the reality. it's something as a former high level gymnast you might not think of as painful, that's just how swinging strap bar feels or that's the discomfort associated with certain exercises or whatever. I try not to be barbaric but at the same time I can tell the ones who are just never going to make it through if their discomfort level doesn't change. Even just to get to L7, 8, to get giants. Physical talent doesn't stop your hands from ripping. if they don't have the drive to push through, it's not going to happen.

That said some kids can push through discomfort physically but lack a certain amount of focus or ability to take direction at younger ages. These kids can mature and actually be pretty driven, they just might not be able to maintain it at all times. For example I have one little one who is quite good and really very motivated to progress, but I have to stay on her because her focus isn't there yet and she can start to do crazy stuff, But this I think is a separate issue from not really "wanting it." She will push through the discomfort, take many turns, etc. This one definitely wants it but is not mature enough to apply herself 100% for the admittedly long amount of time we expect from these kids. I have seen kids mature and change. But for the most part I would say those who are able to stick with the practices without many problems at the younger ages are the ones who progress.

 

[Shelovesthebars]

I really like the way Linsul addressed this issue. The key with these kids is to constantly find ways to challenge them so that they have something to work towards. To reach the higher levels of gymnastics, the drive must be internal. However, this drive can be taught and nurtured along. My daughter's coach is really good at this with all of the kids. When a child has a skill, she challenges them to build onto the skill. ( Like adding a cast to the front hip circle.) She also will teach the kids how to go on and set up their own stations when they are ahead of the others. My 5 year old just knows now that when she is finished with what the coach has assigned, she can add on. She will set up her own kip drills now and practice those. It just has to be interesting and challenging for these kids so that they have something to look forward to if they finish the drills and conditioning that is required. This also give these kids a sense of ownership and responsiblity with their own progression. It works like a charm!

 

[triptwister]

Good point. Any methods you have used in the past that you would recommend to challenge a competitive spirit?

You might try bringing a high performance gymnast to your gym as a guest and have that gymnast workout with your team.

You might try taking your gymnast regularly to high performance competitions and sit there with her to watch and comment on the proceedings. Or see if she can work out among high performance gymnasts.

You might try encouragement based on what high performance gymnasts are doing. Like saying things such as: "While you're standing there chalking your hands for 5 minutes Nastia has probably done a whole bar routine."

You might try sitting down with your gymnast and watching various videos of Olympic or other high performance gymnast's routines and together plan what you might want your gymnast to learn and who you think her competition is. Once she decides who her rivals are then you can keep abreast of their doings and use that to compare and verbally pit your gymnast's progress against.

I suggest that you employ a subtle demeanor and be patient and measured. The more internalized the motivation becomes the less you will have to remind her how hard to work.

 

[Bella's Mom]

You might try encouragement based on what high performance gymnasts are doing. Like saying things such as: "While you're standing there chalking your hands for 5 minutes Nastia has probably done a whole bar routine."

I strongly disagree with doing something like this. I see it as being more divisive than team-building and would create resentment between team members. A very negative technique, IMO.

I wouldn't compare my child to another child in a critical way and I would be quite put out with a coach who used this technique with my child.

 

[Bella's Mom]

If gymnastics were like the American public education system, it would be the coach's responsibility to motivate a gymnast by making gymnast fun all the time without requiring too much of the kids or the parents. And if the kid didn't make the Olympics, the coach would get fired!

 

[Linsul]

In situations like this the tumble track works wonders. I give all the girls something they would each find challenging to do, and tell them if they finish a certain amount of clean attempts then they get some time on the tumble track. By challenging I mean something totally possible, just slightly more than norm in terms of amount, standard performed, by themselves, etc. They will try so hard for free time on the tumble track! Just 5 minutes even. Once they do that consistently I ask for more. Tumble track follows.

Then I start scheduling their challenge around when another group is on the tumble track. I tell them I already know they can do whatever it is I'm asking for, and that it's too bad the track is being used but sometimes we need to do our best for the sake of being our best and getting better/stronger. I never stop using the tumble track, but to get it, things get progressively harder. The reward is never predictable, but the effort has to be!

 

[triptwister]

I'm speaking from experience, Bella's Mom. I've seen what perspective does to gymnasts like Kurt Thomas and what happened when his perspective turned from hot dog impress your peers high school gymnastics to science based college level shape up or ship out gymnastics. I've seen what Kathy Johnson did when nobody believed in her. Her aspirations were beyond her immediate surroundings when she was being outscored at every competition in her former days. Kathy Johnson had her eye on what the Olympians of her day were doing. I used this on my own elite gymnasts back in the day. It didn't take much. Just a word or two. A score sheet. A video. A gymnastics clinic. A tab on improvement about rivals. Before and after accounts. It was subtle but effective.

This is not a guess. It works with competitive spirits. Tried and proved. Its a way to leave other team members in the dust. This is not about team building. This is about motivating a motor genius with a competitive spirit. If the others want to follow suit, they will shape up or ship out. That's the way it is.

If my guess is right, Coacharella has a gymnast on hand that finds pointing her toes boring. And if nothing is done, this gymnast will bore herself out of the sport before too long. It would be a shame.

 

[Linsul]

Kurt Thomas

Chuck Norris made a gymnastics law of the universe proving you can't post that name without also posting:

in the same thread.

 

[Bella's Mom]

@ TripTwister. I'm speaking as an experienced parent who has the job of protecting my child and I would not support a coach who had to resort to that kind of technique on my child.

I just believe there are so many positive ways to direct a child, like all the others you suggested in your first post, that it would be a shame to resort to the comparison game. Even child psychologist speak out against doing that to a child.

I guess I'm just not as intense about gymnastics as you appear to be. Because I don't believe my child will be going to the Olympics, I have different opinions about how she should be treated in the gym.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

muwhahahahahaha...........lol! on linsul's "gymkata" post above bella's.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

You might try bringing a high performance gymnast to your gym as a guest and have that gymnast workout with your team.

You might try taking your gymnast regularly to high performance competitions and sit there with her to watch and comment on the proceedings. Or see if she can work out among high performance gymnasts.

You might try encouragement based on what high performance gymnasts are doing. Like saying things such as: "While you're standing there chalking your hands for 5 minutes Nastia has probably done a whole bar routine."

You might try sitting down with your gymnast and watching various videos of Olympic or other high performance gymnast's routines and together plan what you might want your gymnast to learn and who you think her competition is. Once she decides who her rivals are then you can keep abreast of their doings and use that to compare and verbally pit your gymnast's progress against.

I suggest that you employ a subtle demeanor and be patient and measured. The more internalized the motivation becomes the less you will have to remind her how hard to work.

bold: actually, it is probably 2.

underlined: who would do that? nobody i know.

 

[Galadriel]

my daughter was an A in the original example.
Fell behind.
Was scared of various things.
Changed club
Had a coach that was very positive about individuals individual strengths.
Progressed, but didnt believe she could acheive brilliantly in competition.
She knew she was 'best' in her club, but that didnt translate in competition.
This went on, with her feeling relatively negative about competition, and not realising why she didnt medal as much as she 'should' according to her coaches.
Fast forward to age about 15 - she got invited to a national training session - because apparently other coaches saw she had potential, but obviously didnt achieve in competition.
In that training session she experienced high level gymnasts training, and different higher expectations from coaches, and different training methods.
She ended up from there finding somewhere her internal motivation, and now is going from strength to strength - had the talent, and now has the internal drive.
My DS's coach (who has never coached my DD) always said 'I would rather have an average teenager than a super talented 8 year old' He said it is a long term journey to produce a good gymnast - although they can transfer to many other sports with what gym gives them.
My DD seems to reflect this