Parents Would you rather...

[QueenBee]

@LGnyc Thanks for the further info...this is a challenging situation. A lot depends on how your gym trains, and how your optional routines are constructed. The other big piece is how your daughter felt competing Level 7. Was she happy competing Level 7, did she improved over the meet season, was she discouraged by poor scoring? Did she feel like she would have had a better season at Level 6 (asking if she brought that idea up). Is she feeling good about her current progress and happy at practice? If she repeats Level 7, will she be up training all year? If she competes Level 8, will she be happy no matter what the scores?

Vault:
Does she have a yurchenko for Level 8? Or is she working a tsuk? Or is she continuing with the FHS? The reason I ask about vault is that in Level 8, vaults do not necessarily begin with a 10 start value. If she is not on track to vault with a 10SV, she may be unpleasantly surprised by how low the scores can be. I was surprised to see how much distance (in scores) there was between vaulters who were starting with a 10, and those who were starting with a 9.8 or lower. FHS rarely hit higher than the mid 8s. If she is solid on a 10SV vault for Level 8, that would be a good indication that moving forward might be a good choice. If she isn't looking at a vault with a 10SV, that is another important piece of information to process.

Bars:
When you say she had her giant flyaway but release was wonky, has she worked the kinks out? Is she consistently casting to handstand and was her circling element to handstand? If her casts are to handstand, her circling element is to handstand and she has worked out the flyaway issues, then she would most likely have a good Level 8 bar routine (if she is on target to get her Level 8 bar skills). If she is struggling to hit handstands and still has release issues...then I would push to repeat Level 7 just to get the bar stuff alone locked down. Casting (if not to handstand) really hurts the pirouette most gymnasts compete in Level 8 and can decimate scores. This might be an area (if she stayed in Level 7) that she could see big improvements in technique (and in scores) if she needs to do more work to hit handstands as well as firm up that flyaway.

Beam:
The more elements a gymnast needs to do to hit the requirements of a routine, the more places a gymnast can (and will) receive deductions. Does she have a series (with flight) ready for Level 8? If that remains an issue, again, Level 7 is a great place for her to strengthen her technique and confidence. As you said - she has options at Level 7 to upgrade her series which will only improve her Level 8 gymnastics (when she gets there). All things being equal, a BWO BHS or BHS BHS will score better than a BWO BWO plus an additional BHS just because there are fewer elements to deduct on. Another thing to consider in this (if beam is shaky) is that Level 8 beam has 'compositional' deductions that gymnasts see for the first time. Scores can look a lot different there.

Floor:
Does your gym do 2 or 3 passes at Level 7? I ask because I think that if you want your daughter to compete a full or 1/2 during Level 7, she would need to do three passes (gymnasts are required to do a back LO, and a front pass - so if she wanted to upgrade a pass with a full, I think she would need to do a 3rd pass). That isn't necessarily a problem per se just remember, more elements = more areas for deductions. She could increase the difficulty but not see an increase in score (or see a decrease because there are more opportunities for deductions). It might be worth the potential decrease in score to work the third pass and build endurance. Her coach would probably be the best judge of the risk/reward there.

I hope some of these thoughts help you in figuring out this issue. Talk to your coach, talk to your daughter, figure out what you will consider a win (in both scenarios). None of this is easy...I will be sending you and your daughter good vibes that she has a great summer of training and everything comes together exactly as she hopes.

 

[LGnyc]

@LGnyc Thanks for the further info...this is a challenging situation. A lot depends on how your gym trains, and how your optional routines are constructed. The other big piece is how your daughter felt competing Level 7. Was she happy competing Level 7, did she improved over the meet season, was she discouraged by poor scoring? Did she feel like she would have had a better season at Level 6 (asking if she brought that idea up). Is she feeling good about her current progress and happy at practice? If she repeats Level 7, will she be up training all year? If she competes Level 8, will she be happy no matter what the scores?

Vault:
Does she have a yurchenko for Level 8? Or is she working a tsuk? Or is she continuing with the FHS? The reason I ask about vault is that in Level 8, vaults do not necessarily begin with a 10 start value. If she is not on track to vault with a 10SV, she may be unpleasantly surprised by how low the scores can be. I was surprised to see how much distance (in scores) there was between vaulters who were starting with a 10, and those who were starting with a 9.8 or lower. FHS rarely hit higher than the mid 8s. If she is solid on a 10SV vault for Level 8, that would be a good indication that moving forward might be a good choice. If she isn't looking at a vault with a 10SV, that is another important piece of information to process.

Bars:
When you say she had her giant flyaway but release was wonky, has she worked the kinks out? Is she consistently casting to handstand and was her circling element to handstand? If her casts are to handstand, her circling element is to handstand and she has worked out the flyaway issues, then she would most likely have a good Level 8 bar routine (if she is on target to get her Level 8 bar skills). If she is struggling to hit handstands and still has release issues...then I would push to repeat Level 7 just to get the bar stuff alone locked down. Casting (if not to handstand) really hurts the pirouette most gymnasts compete in Level 8 and can decimate scores. This might be an area (if she stayed in Level 7) that she could see big improvements in technique (and in scores) if she needs to do more work to hit handstands as well as firm up that flyaway.

Beam:
The more elements a gymnast needs to do to hit the requirements of a routine, the more places a gymnast can (and will) receive deductions. Does she have a series (with flight) ready for Level 8? If that remains an issue, again, Level 7 is a great place for her to strengthen her technique and confidence. As you said - she has options at Level 7 to upgrade her series which will only improve her Level 8 gymnastics (when she gets there). All things being equal, a BWO BHS or BHS BHS will score better than a BWO BWO plus an additional BHS just because there are fewer elements to deduct on. Another thing to consider in this (if beam is shaky) is that Level 8 beam has 'compositional' deductions that gymnasts see for the first time. Scores can look a lot different there.

Floor:
Does your gym do 2 or 3 passes at Level 7? I ask because I think that if you want your daughter to compete a full or 1/2 during Level 7, she would need to do three passes (gymnasts are required to do a back LO, and a front pass - so if she wanted to upgrade a pass with a full, I think she would need to do a 3rd pass). That isn't necessarily a problem per se just remember, more elements = more areas for deductions. She could increase the difficulty but not see an increase in score (or see a decrease because there are more opportunities for deductions). It might be worth the potential decrease in score to work the third pass and build endurance. Her coach would probably be the best judge of the risk/reward there.

I hope some of these thoughts help you in figuring out this issue. Talk to your coach, talk to your daughter, figure out what you will consider a win (in both scenarios). None of this is easy...I will be sending you and your daughter good vibes that she has a great summer of training and everything comes together exactly as she hopes.

First off, let me just say that is the MOST informative and gracious reply I've gotten/seen. You were incredibly thoughtful about all the events and the skills. Let me see if I can answer one by one.

Vault: She is training the yurchenko. Whether she will have it by Nov/Dec when we start competing is another question. I think they are being aggressive with it because regardless she will need some variation. With the new L7 vault being the timer, she needs to get part of the way there regardless, right? I have also seen our gym start girls with the FHS in the fall/winter until the yurchenko gets more consistent. Assuming all of their other skills are L8.

Bars: She's pretty consistent to handstand. Can get a touch shy some of the times, but 75% of the time was doing KCHS on high bar, giant, flyaway layout. Definitely working on her release. She's had it down cold and then it can get wonky again. I definitely think she will have that sorted out by fall. And again, this all depends on making sure she gets the pirouette and stalder consistently (because her clear hip was NOT to handstand). If she doesn't, then I agree she would and should repeat.

Beam: This is far and away the biggest problem. She is working the BWO BHS now, and I feel confident will have it by fall. But doesn't she need a BHS BHS for L8? And again, let me reiterate that I don't see it as a "problem" in general bc I think L7 would be great. Just mean in terms of L8. Can you tell me more about skills for L8 and the compositional deductions? I had not known that at all.

Floor: Our gym does three passes. Last year she did the layout, the FHS FT, and the last pass with the BT. The three passes they do for L8 are the whip tuck, the FHS FLO, and the full (don't know what order). So I assume if she were to repeat L7, she'd do the half or full, the front tumbling pass, and the layout for the last pass. And lots of cardio to get there!

Any further insight, I'm all ears! And my gym is not so communicative, so even if they tell us one thing today, it might change in August, and as we learned last year, yet again in October. Yoiks!

 

[Texasmomof3]

Beam: This is far and away the biggest problem. She is working the BWO BHS now, and I feel confident will have it by fall. But doesn't she need a BHS BHS for L8? And again, let me reiterate that I don't see it as a "problem" in general bc I think L7 would be great. Just mean in terms of L8. Can you tell me more about skills for L8 and the compositional deductions? I had not known that at all.

I just wanted to comment on the beam part. Level 7 beam requires a connect series. Level 8 beam requires a connect series with flight. So, BWO-BWO, BWO-BHS and BHS-BHS all work for level 7. BWO-BHS and BHS-BHS work for level 8, but BWO-BWO does not, as there is no flight.

The compositional deduction is an optional deduction that can be taken if in the opinion of the judge the routine is not as technically difficult as you would expect for a level 8. So if you do the bare minimum as skills you can have a 10.0 SV routine but also lose points (I think it is up to .3) if the routine seems "too easy" for level 8. I am not a judge, but I do not think a BWO-BHS combo would get a deduction if the rest of your routine is up to level.

Does she have a switch leap on beam? Does she do a twisting dismount? Does she roundoff into her dismount? Does she have a back tuck on the beam? These are all standard parts of our gym's level 8 beam routines that help upgrade them from level 7 and keep them "up to level."

 

[LGnyc]

I just wanted to comment on the beam part. Level 7 beam requires a connect series. Level 8 beam requires a connect series with flight. So, BWO-BWO, BWO-BHS and BHS-BHS all work for level 7. BWO-BHS and BHS-BHS work for level 8, but BWO-BWO does not, as there is no flight.

The compositional deduction is an optional deduction that can be taken if in the opinion of the judge the routine is not as technically difficult as you would expect for a level 8. So if you do the bare minimum as skills you can have a 10.0 SV routine but also lose points (I think it is up to .3) if the routine seems "too easy" for level 8. I am not a judge, but I do not think a BWO-BHS combo would get a deduction if the rest of your routine is up to level.

Does she have a switch leap on beam? Does she do a twisting dismount? Does she roundoff into her dismount? Does she have a back tuck on the beam? These are all standard parts of our gym's level 8 beam routines that help upgrade them from level 7 and keep them "up to level."

Thank you for the insight. Our gym does either the BHS BHS or BT on beam for L8, plus the RO BT or RO BL. So it never occurred to me that she could even remotely compete 8 with the BWO BHS if her other skills were sufficient. She's making progress on RO BT and switch leap. But it does sound like without something else in there, she'd lose the .3. Honestly it just seems like there is still too far to go. I have to imagine gymnasts at other gyms are further along in L8 skills by now.

 

[Texasmomof3]

My dd will be competing level 8 this next competition season. She will probably start the season with BWO-BHS, but she might do BHS-BHS. She has the rest of the skills. Or at least she had. She had a beautiful switch leap. Then she split the beam badly and didn't practice it for over a month. Now she is struggling with it. But since she had it for over a year before losing it, I'm sure it will come back by the time competition starts up.

 

[LGnyc]

My dd will be competing level 8 this next competition season. She will probably start the season with BWO-BHS, but she might do BHS-BHS. She has the rest of the skills. Or at least she had. She had a beautiful switch leap. Then she split the beam badly and didn't practice it for over a month. Now she is struggling with it. But since she had it for over a year before losing it, I'm sure it will come back by the time competition starts up.

So when you say the rest of the skills - you mean the BT and switch leap? What else might you have or need? And what is her dismount? Btw, splitting the beam on a switch leap sounds just awful. I could understand not doing it for a year! I hope she's able to move forward. These girls are so damn brave.

 

[Texasmomof3]

Her dismount is a roundoff connected to a back tuck with a half twist. (I have no idea the correct technical term.)

In L7, she did: BWO-BWO combo; BHS; full turn; 180 split leap connected to a straight jump; cartwheel-BT dismount.
For L8, I believe she is doing: BWO-BHS combo; full turn; switch leap; BT; some other jump or leap; roundoff-BT with a half twist dismount.

 

[LGnyc]

When I started this, it wasn't to ask about my specific DD, it was to get a general sense of how to think about repeating and options. Now of course it has morphed into a discussion of my gym girl and I wanted to just thank you all for engaging. I really feel I've learned a ton.

Btw, Texasmomof3, her L7 routine was pretty much identical - except it was the split leap connected to the sissone. And she scored nicely almost all year. But because she spent so much of the year catching up from the L6 mess, she was barely working upgrades - instead she was working level skills. I suspect that is why she is behind now. Does that make sense?

 

[Natasha]

If she does 8 with the minimum skills, she will probably need another year at 8 before she is ready for 9. The skills get bigger, longer to learn and way longer to get consistent starting at this level. So really, she could do another year of 7, uptrain and be solid for 8 next year and then 9, or struggle at 8 this year, do a solid year of 8 and then 9....

 

[QueenBee]

Here is a 'cheat sheet' you may find to be very helpful

https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/Rules/J.O. Code of Points/appndx08_L68cheat_1221.pdf

The only definitive difference between Level 7 and Level 8 beam is that the series must contain flight in Level 8. However, there are a lot of compositional deductions that can be taken to ensure gymnasts are 'up to level' in their beam routines. The cheat sheet goes through them with almost mind numbing detail.

In our experience, many of the deductions weren't taken at the beginning of the season but by State & Regionals, judges were picky & stingy. As they should be, I guess .

 

[CCGymbug]

I actually on 2 occasions gave dd the choice. She said she would rather do the next level than to medal. 1st year was so so, she did medal, but not as much as in the past and usually a lower placement. Next time, she ended up doing really well. She than had the chance to score out and did it by the skin of her nose. She is now going for lvl 7 and I have to look back on prior levels to tell myself its right for her and I have to live with it. If not seeing the podium will be an issue, repeat. If being challenged but safe with no glory can be handled, I say step out of comfort zone.

 

[raenndrops]

I'm going to chime back in here now.
My OG competed L6 last season after 2 YEARS off. She had SOME success, but not what she was used to. She was also the oldest in L6 on her team (and all 3 L8s were younger than her, even though 2 were in the same grade). She was frustrated. Drama outside of gym didn't help. She was PLANNING to compete L7 this year, but the drama has kept her out of the gym since before the end of May, so she knows she won't have all of her L7 skills solid.
Our new L6s will mostly be 3-4 years younger than her, so she doesn't want that.
She was considering quitting, but she knows (from experience) that she will miss it too much.
So she doesn't repeat L6 OR compete L7 before she is ready, she is going to compete Xcel Platinum until she is ready on all events for L7, then she will switch over. We are mostly waiting on Bars (casts, high bar clear hip, and flyaway - lost years ago). On beam, she needs to solidify her series. On Floor, she needs to pull the pike out of her layout and get more consistency on her FHS-FT.

 

[LGnyc]

I'm going to chime back in here now.
My OG competed L6 last season after 2 YEARS off. She had SOME success, but not what she was used to. She was also the oldest in L6 on her team (and all 3 L8s were younger than her, even though 2 were in the same grade). She was frustrated. Drama outside of gym didn't help. She was PLANNING to compete L7 this year, but the drama has kept her out of the gym since before the end of May, so she knows she won't have all of her L7 skills solid.
Our new L6s will mostly be 3-4 years younger than her, so she doesn't want that.
She was considering quitting, but she knows (from experience) that she will miss it too much.
So she doesn't repeat L6 OR compete L7 before she is ready, she is going to compete Xcel Platinum until she is ready on all events for L7, then she will switch over. We are mostly waiting on Bars (casts, high bar clear hip, and flyaway - lost years ago). On beam, she needs to solidify her series. On Floor, she needs to pull the pike out of her layout and get more consistency on her FHS-FT.

That sounds tough for OG but I'm impressed that she knows herself well enough to know that she will miss it and what circumstances will work for her. And kudos to you for coming up with a creative solution for her.

 

[raenndrops]

That sounds tough for OG but I'm impressed that she knows herself well enough to know that she will miss it and what circumstances will work for her. And kudos to you for coming up with a creative solution for her.

Thanks. She quit after old L6 (lost the flyaway and Back tuck both mid-season) and stayed out of the gym for 5+ months before coming back. She competed Xcel Gold for that 1/2 season and the following season. Then she was going to go to Platinum, but MAJOR drama started so no gym for 2 years.
Came back last August/September/October (had to work around high school volleyball team, so she was lucky to be there once a week until it was over in mid-October). HC put her in L6 because we had no Platinums and for the most part, HC views L6 as easier (no connections needed on Beam, and floor is easier. Bars are the same other that cast deductions). There was also another girl her age in L6 and they got along - with a friendly competitive rivalry in there too
She was able to score as high as 9s on all but bars … but she was still our 2nd highest L6 Bar scorer. For a perfectionist used to placing top 3, a high AA finish of 4th (with highs of VT- 1st, UB - 7th, BB - 2nd, and FX - 4th) was hard to stomach. More time in the gym would have helped, but once again, DRAMA… grrrr.
She wants this, but she wants to feel good about herself at the same time.
This is what she needs.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Depends on a lot of things. The level, the age of the child, why her/his skills are not solid, and where the child is at mentally.

What I would do for my 7 yr old beginning compulsory kid, is different then what I would do for my now 11 yr old optional kid.

Operating from past experience. My kid has always been a cusp kid, and has always been kept back. And with hindsight it has always been the best thing.

This year is the first year I am at peace with whatever. Once again, cusp of 7 or 6. She did a half of season of 6 last year. Personally I would rather she do 2 yr of 7 rather then a full 6 this year then 7. My guess is she will stay 6 for probably all of the season, likely at least part of it. But really I trust the coaches. So whatever. In the long haul. She is not going Elite, Olympic or Div 1 or 2 so I'm good with whatever is decided. As long as my kid is good too. If she wasn't I would have to rethink it.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Honsstly, for many gymnasts at the compulsory level, it comes down to bars.

In my world it always comes down to bars. Every.Stinkin.Year. lol

 

[nycgymmom]

Level 3 or below - move up.
Level 4 - repeat.
Level 5 - get them the heck outta there.
Level 6 - repeat.
Level 7 - repeat.
Level 8 - repeat x2.
Level 9 - repeat x3.
Xcel Bronze - move up.
Xcel Silver - move up.
Xcel Gold - repeat x2.
Xcel Platinum - repeat x3.
IGC Copper 1 - move up.
IGC Copper 2 - move up.
IGC Bronze - repeat.
IGC Silver - repeat x2.
IGC Gold - repeat x3.
IGC Platinum -repeat x3.

May I ask why L5 is get them the heck out...which I agree with just want to know your training of thought

 

[raenndrops]

May I ask why L5 is get them the heck out...which I agree with just want to know your training of thought

Level 5 is notoriously low scoring.
If they compete an entire season, I would rather they compete L6 than repeat. They can still work on their basics in L6 (a big reason I hear for competing L5 instead of L6 is so they can work on basics) - it isnt against the rules... but they can design routines to suit their strengths while working on the basics.
My OG competed the equivalent of L5 (Old L6). Mid-season, she developed a fear of the back tuck (fell on one in meet warm ups) and the flyaway (broke a toe 2x and fell a couple times when she clipped the bar in competition). If they would have had the option to go to Current L6 then, she wouldnt have quit that first time. When she came back, she competed Xcel Gold (with basically L6 routines) while she worked to get past her fears. It took 18 months to get past the back tuck fear. She is STILL trying to work thru the flyaway fear... 5 years later (with another 2 years off counting in the 5).

 

[nycgymmom]

Level 5 is notoriously low scoring.
If they compete an entire season, I would rather they compete L6 than repeat. They can still work on their basics in L6 (a big reason I hear for competing L5 instead of L6 is so they can work on basics) - it isnt against the rules... but they can design routines to suit their strengths while working on the basics.....

That is what I tell my gym moms but many disagree. They think we want to rush through the levels.

 

[raenndrops]

That is what I tell my gym moms but many disagree. They think we want to rush through the levels.

Lol, at our gym, we definitely don't RUSH through the levels. This past season, all of our L5s were 6th graders. They will all be L6s for 7th grade (and it looks like they are all competing for the Jr. High team too). The year before, all of our L5s were in 7th-8th grade and competed for the Jr. High team, so they had L6 routines ready. They had the option to score out (we require 2 meets with 31+) and move up to L6 mid-season. They did. And the year before that was our first year with a L5 team. 2 of the girls competed for the Jr. High team and had L6 routines ready, so they had the option to move up mid-season but they both chose to finish the season at L5.

We have one girl that could PROBABLY move to L5 this coming season, but she will be repeating L4. She is only 8 years old. We know L5 would be a struggle for her even though she has most of the skills (missing the clear hip 80% of the time at this point), so she will repeat. We are hoping she can have a more successful L4 season and be better prepared for L5 next year.

Other than mid-season move ups for Jr. High team members from L5-L6, mostly we only allow repeaters to move up mid-season… and they have to meet more stringent standards for that (and very few that are offered the chance take us up on it - 2 girls in the last 3 years).