WAG Yurchenko vault question

[wallflower]

This is probably a stupid question and I apologize in advance for my stupidity ;-)
When girls are first learning the yurchenko vault, what is the most difficult part to learn? The round off entry or the flip on the post flight? My presumption (ignorant presumption) is that if the ro entry is correct that the flipping part is the easier part.

We have several sets of optional coaches at DD's gym and its interesting to watch how one coach moves very quickly to flipping the vault in the pit and seems to work immediately on the table and the other coach spends forever on ro layouts, RO layout layout on resi and stays far away from the table.

 

[gymnastflip]

If the entry is correct then the flip will almost happen by it's self. If correct the timers should go to their backs so tucking in will make it flip it easily

 

[wallinbl]

We have several sets of optional coaches at DD's gym and its interesting to watch how one coach moves very quickly to flipping the vault in the pit and seems to work immediately on the table and the other coach spends forever on ro layouts, RO layout layout on resi and stays far away from the table.

Is that specific to Yurchenkos, or just representative of their general styles? We have one coach that generally has girls (once they're reasonably able to) go for it and then makes corrections. We have another coach who will make sure every individual mechanic is right, then let them put it together.

 

[MaryA]

Sorry, Wallflower, if it's bad form to tack my Yurchenko question onto yours, but yours reminded me of a Yurchenko question I wanted to ask, and probably the same people who know the answer to yours will know the answer to mine. DD says that, even though they're working on flipping Yurchenkos, the 8's will probably compete twisting ones? Is it still a Yurchenko if you twist out of it? Is it still a 10.0 start value? I assume this is easier to learn?

 

[fuzi]

Sorry, Wallflower, if it's bad form to tack my Yurchenko question onto yours, but yours reminded me of a Yurchenko question I wanted to ask, and probably the same people who know the answer to yours will know the answer to mine. DD says that, even though they're working on flipping Yurchenkos, the 8's will probably compete twisting ones? Is it still a Yurchenko if you twist out of it? Is it still a 10.0 start value? I assume this is easier to learn?

For level 8, a yuchenko tuck is a 9.8 SV ad yurchenko pike is a 10.0 SV. A round-off, BHS on with 1/2 twist off is a 9.1 SV, with 1/1 twist off is a 9.4 SV, and with a 1 1/2 twist is a 9.6 SV.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

The entry is several orders of magnitude more difficult than the postflight. If you have a good entry, the flip is nothing. If you have a bad entry, the flip is impossible.

Is that specific to Yurchenkos, or just representative of their general styles? We have one coach that generally has girls (once they're reasonably able to) go for it and then makes corrections. We have another coach who will make sure every individual mechanic is right, then let them put it together.

Coach #2's style is generally preferable. There certainly are skills where you just have to go for it and then go back and fix it, but generally it's preferable to make mechanical corrections in the preparatory phase.

The goal with any well-designed set of drills and progressions is that each step should feel easy, like something they've already done but with only minor additions and changes. In an ideal progression, when the gymnast performs the final skill, it should look relatively clean and easy within the first few attempts.

Of course, that's the theoretical ideal. In practice, it doesn't always work out that way. With most skills, you can only break them down so far before you reach the point where the complexity simply can't be reduced any further, and they just have to chuck it.

The first half of a roundoff is a good example of this sort of irreducible complexity; there are few drills that I'm aware of that mimic the feel of the first half of a roundoff effectively enough to be useful as drills; therefore, the progression is basically handtand --> cartwheel --> chuck the roundoff --> spend the next five years cleaning and correcting the roundoff.

 

[gymgal]

From what dd had told me, Entry seems to me to be more difficult to actually learn - timing, power to get on the vault, positioning; but given the number of face plants and sit down landings I've seen at meets, I would say the flip and rotation is more difficult to perfect. Them again, over/under rotation directly stems from the entry so it is all connected.

 

[wallflower]

Is that specific to Yurchenkos, or just representative of their general styles? We have one coach that generally has girls (once they're reasonably able to) go for it and then makes corrections. We have another coach who will make sure every individual mechanic is right, then let them put it together.

I think it is generally reflective of that coaches style to let kids "chunk" things. For example he will spot the yurchenko and basically throw them into the flip. He will also let his little ones do crazy things that look awful. It's interesting because DD sometimes has this coach and she will get to do her timers alone on the table and when she tells me she did them on the table I can always guess which coach she had. Her actual coach spends most of the time on round off drills on the floor. And she does lots of ro onto the board layout overrated to her back on level 4 vault mat. Her actual coach did start letting her do a little table this week, but covered by mats and only 5 turns and then back to the drills. So he is slowly sneaking in a little bit of timers on the table.

Which leads to another yurchenko question: do girls of varying sizes use varied table settings? I assume if the table is set low it would be harder to flip? Maybe that's not the case. DD said when she did get to do timers on the table it was set to 110. Can an actual yurchenko be done on 110 if they are little?

I 100% trust her coach, I'm just a curious person by nature. I like to know as much as I can.

 

[wallflower]

Sorry, Wallflower, if it's bad form to tack my Yurchenko question onto yours, but yours reminded me of a Yurchenko question I wanted to ask, and probably the same people who know the answer to yours will know the answer to mine. DD says that, even though they're working on flipping Yurchenkos, the 8's will probably compete twisting ones? Is it still a Yurchenko if you twist out of it? Is it still a 10.0 start value? I assume this is easier to learn?

No worries! This can be the "Yurchenkos for Dummies" thread for us newbies to this vault. I have a ton of questions. That's very interesting about the twisting off. I can't say I've ever seen anyone do that. Coaches, how common is that?

 

[hawaii_gymnast]

From what dd had told me, Entry seems to me to be more difficult to actually learn - timing, power to get on the vault, positioning; but given the number of face plants and sit down landings I've seen at meets, I would say the flip and rotation is more difficult to perfect. Them again, over/under rotation directly stems from the entry so it is all connected.

Yes it appears with all the wipeouts that the flip is harder to perfect, but generally these problems will be fixed by fixing the entry and time.

 

[gymdog]

It would be unusual to do a flipping vault on 110...possible, I suppose, but I guess I would expect the kid to be quite small. Even an average small kid should do at least 120 in most cases. But everything is individual when it comes to this.

Some yurchenko drills are okay to add the flip to early, like if they're going over a mat vault into the pit, and not using a springboard, just punching off a floor or track...that would be a fine beginning drill to be spotted through the flip early on. But going over the table is not really something I think is great to mess with, even if they are "safe" from say, hitting their head, a loose, incorrect entry could break a wrist. Actually a good entry could. Ask the coaches about wrist supports if she is going over the table now.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

the single MOST IMPORTANT component of the Yurchenko vault IS THE ROUND OFF. end of story. no round off means no entry.

 

[wallflower]

the single MOST IMPORTANT component of the Yurchenko vault IS THE ROUND OFF. end of story. no round off means no entry.

Then I guess it's a good thing that DD has spent 6-7 months working on the round-off and the work is never done. I'm very glad DD is with the coach that does this and not the one that is doing mostly table. Hopefully a Friday here and there with the other coach won't do too much damage.

 

[wallflower]

It would be unusual to do a flipping vault on 110...possible, I suppose, but I guess I would expect the kid to be quite small. Even an average small kid should do at least 120 in most cases. But everything is individual when it comes to this.

Some yurchenko drills are okay to add the flip to early, like if they're going over a mat vault into the pit, and not using a springboard, just punching off a floor or track...that would be a fine beginning drill to be spotted through the flip early on. But going over the table is not really something I think is great to mess with, even if they are "safe" from say, hitting their head, a loose, incorrect entry could break a wrist. Actually a good entry could. Ask the coaches about wrist supports if she is going over the table now.

DD is not in the group that flips and when she does do the tiniest bit of table it's covered in mats and spotted. And she doesn't go over, there's a mat behind it same level or higher than the table.

 

[vagymmomma]

It would be unusual to do a flipping vault on 110...possible, I suppose, but I guess I would expect the kid to be quite small. Even an average small kid should do at least 120 in most cases. But everything is individual when it comes to this.

Along the line of vaulting for dummies, how do the European/fig heights (110, 120 etc.) compare to the scale 2, 3, 4, et al scales we hear about in gyms? At one point I thought DD told me that elites can no go over the equivalent of a 5, but don't know how that compares to the other scale or if it's even true.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

Oooh, I would like to know that too - we just measure the height - Pink and Fluffy currently vaults at 115

Sent from my CnM Touchpad 9.7 using ChalkBucket mobile app

 

[wallflower]

Along the line of vaulting for dummies, how do the European/fig heights (110, 120 etc.) compare to the scale 2, 3, 4, et al scales we hear about in gyms? At one point I thought DD told me that elites can no go over the equivalent of a 5, but don't know how that compares to the other scale or if it's even true.

I think that 125=5, 120=4, 115=3, etc

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Yes. The conversion formula is (X-100)/5.

So 100 -> 0
105 -> 1
110 -> 2
etc

 

[level9mom]

Both my daughter and her friend said the entry is most def the hardest part to learn.


Every awful story begins with "we were on beam and..."

 

[iwannacoach]

From what dd had told me, Entry seems to me to be more difficult to actually learn - timing, power to get on the vault, positioning; but given the number of face plants and sit down landings I've seen at meets, I would say the flip and rotation is more difficult to perfect. Them again, over/under rotation directly stems from the entry so it is all connected.

I think what you've seen is mostly an example of "garbage in-garbage out" that result in mat blush or face plants. Sure the flip isn't a walk in the park, but on a scale of 1 to 10 the flip is a 3 and the round-off entry is 12...... This is not a vault that should be undertaken with a casual attitude by rushing to the salto phase because what happens is the kid either gets hurt doing the salto from a poor beginning, or they have to back track and drill the entry....... again.