Changes to the WAG program.

[Pineapple_Lump]

http://www.gymnastics.org.au/site/g...stralian Program Framework beyond 2014 v2.pdf



http://www.gymnastics.org.au/site/g...n Levels Program L1-10 Skill Content 2406.pdf

This is all coming out far too late for a January release.

 

[_coachbrooke_]

I was emailed mine but you can find it by doing the following:
-Go to gymnastics Victoria homepage
-Go to technical information tab (across the top of page)
-Select WAG tech updates from selection menu on left hand side
- Click on "click here to read more.." In the top box

: )

 

[_coachbrooke_]

I am still lost as to whether state stream will be kept or not, it seems to be hinted/stated that state stream kids will be transitioned across either into same level or the level lower, my state stream girls would not be happy of I told them they had to go down a level, would def not ensure "retention of gymnasts in the sport"!

Does anyone know if/when the states will tell us if they are keeping their state streams? Would be nice to be able to plan for next year!

 

[mumoftwogymnasts]

I am still lost as to whether state stream will be kept or not, it seems to be hinted/stated that state stream kids will be transitioned across either into same level or the level lower, my state stream girls would not be happy of I told them they had to go down a level, would def not ensure "retention of gymnasts in the sport"!

I totally agree with this, state stream girls who are "strong competitors" can transition to the same level - but if you are average or weaker it is recommended that they go down one or even two levels. No matter how this is presented to gymnasts it is going to be perceived by them as a demotion. For older girls in particular I think this may be the trigger for them to leave the sport.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

Ultimately it is up to the state as it is a state run program, although it seems like nationally they will be trying to push states to get rid of the state style streams. It will come down to money for the states associations. It seems that many feel their non NDP gymnasts will struggle in a joint stream and will not enter kids/loose kids/run their own competitions for these kids, that means states will be loosing money.

Honestly what clubs are going to enter their gymnasts into level one and two skills tests to be assessed by a parent turned judge of 2 years when the coaches have over 10 years of actual experience. I certainly would not ask parents to pay money to be assessed by a novice and have no rewards when that same assessment can and is done within the club. States are also going to loose money here.

 

[mumoftwogymnasts]

Honestly what clubs are going to enter their gymnasts into level one and two skills tests to be assessed by a parent turned judge of 2 years when the coaches have over 10 years of actual experience. I certainly would not ask parents to pay money to be assessed by a novice and have no rewards when that same assessment can and is done within the club.

^^^^ Totally agree, why not just start competition at level 3 ?

 

[_coachbrooke_]

Do you think they are setting themselves up for a big mess/ having to re-do the whole thing again at some point sooner rather than later?

Does anyone know/understand why they are halving the deductions?

 

[ruby&jack]

What I don't don't understand is what will happen to training hours if they are trying to merge the two? Will current NPD girls drops hours to allow the state/prep girls to join them? The train half the amount of hours in the lower levels..

 

[_coachbrooke_]

From what I remember hearing in that video thing, the aim of this whole new program thing is to reduce the number of hrs needing to be trained for the lower national levels regardless of what happens to state stream...

What I think will happen is that if they take state stream away, the state stream girls will have to adjust for the new program not the national girls adjust for state. For example, a weak state level 4 gymnast training say 3hrs would be moved to national level 2 or 3.

 

[Aussie_coach]

State stream has nothing to do with gymnastics Australia. The State streams are out together by the states, it is up to each individual state if they will run it or not. But the idea is that State stream should no longer be nessesary. In my state we have no state stream and it still works by having competitions that are split in divisions based on the number of hours the girls train.

It does not have to affect a gymnasts hours, it will be the choice of each gym how many hours they choose to have their gymnasts train at each level. Gyms don't have to put ex state stream gymnasts in the same class as those who came from the old national stream. If they had enough kids to justify separate classes before then they can still do this. No doubt many gyms will offer the option of doing both higher and lower hours at the same level depending on the gymnasts goals in the sport.

The reason why the deductions are halved is because they will be going back to the old scoring system where the score is out of 10. As there are no bonus skills until level 9, there is no need for an open ended scoring system.

I actually think there has been some excellent thinking put into this program. I don't think it will be a big mess and I don't think they will have to redo it. It may need some tweaking but many improvements have been made which will be very beneficial for the gymnasts and the sport.

We already have a system in my state similar to the level 1-2 system they are announcing, where kids participate in non scored competitions. This is one option we have for comp, most level 1-2 comps are actual comps. But the system works. Remember that the kids in level 1-2 will average 5-7 years of age. It is about building their confidence and getting them used to performing in urgent on an audience and rewarding them for it. The idea is to take all the judging and competing and who is better than who out of the foundation levels of gymnastics and let kids focus on their love for the sport and building their confidence while gaining the necessary foundation skills.

The idea is not for state to lose money but gain more money because more gymnasts will be attracted to the sport and will stick around longer. Kids will no longer be needing to spend multiple years at the same level, and competitions will no longer have 100 or more girls in a division.

 

[OzZee]

Aussie coach, whilst it is the states that put together their state stream programs, it is gymnastics Australia that is recommending only having two streams.
I would be interested to hear more on how the training hour competitions work in qld? Are there age divisions as well?

It seems to me that one of the big increased participation things is more awards. How would that help a limited hour (or lesser talent) gymnast who still wouldn't get an award compared to competing mostly against girls training similar hours.
And that comment on the video that it means clubs wont have to train 20hours at lower levels. well they don't now and many don't, but some do and unless an hours enforcement is made those clubs with huge hours will continue to do so making the gap larger.

Interested in the thing about skill testing and moving between programs, would that mean gymnasts at a non idp climb could be talent identified through the testing and the club would have to tell them of the opportunities available.

 

[Aussie_coach]

At present most of our level 1-3 competitions have two divisions. A novice (which refers to limited hours) and an open division. Generally this is broken down into level 1 training 2 hours a week or less level 2 training 4 hours a week or less and level 3 training 6 hours a week or less. There is usually no age group break downs if there is an hours break down.

Many smaller clubs hold their own non donation end competitions just for kids who train very low hours, and the more recreational clubs just stick with these competitions. As a result the kids at very limited hours clubs often have lots of opportunities for kids to win awards.

If competitions are larger I am sure it would now be broken down much further into different hour brackets.

Gymnastics Australia are recommending that states just have the two steams but they won't stop states from adding their own if needed. However, due to my experience I find it preferable to have just two streams. Often kids are put into a lower stream than they need to be when there is a 3 stream system. There are many kids who can do more but a desicion made at 5 or 6 years old prevents this.

If they don't divide divisions by hours clubs will say, okay we don't want to compete with the big clubs we will hold our own competitions and only invite other limited hours clubs, other limited hours clubs will do the same and there will be lots of comps available.

 

[OzZee]

Yes there can be a lot of pigeon holing when there is a multi stream system. I think having a single foundation level/s is a great idea. Especially if through the testing kids have to be told about the opportunities available. I know many kids at non idp clubs don't find out about the stream until too late.
But moving up through the levels state stream is great here (in NSW State stream itself is levels 4-10 and prep 1-3 is used as the beginning levels). It gives girls an opportunity to continue to compete without making gymnastics their one and only thing and not have to compete against the girls/clubs that are training 20 hours + per week from level 1.

 

[_coachbrooke_]

Will the state associations tell us whether they are going to keep state stream or should we just assume that they are/aren't?

 

[OzZee]

haha coachbrooke - keep us informed? Think that's asking too much. I think the assumption is no.

@aussiecoach - how do levels 4+ work with training hours for competition break down up there? That's where I see the biggest benefit for state stream.
Yes there will always be clubs that do 20 hours at level 1 but on the whole most do similar hours for levels 1-3. But when you start hitting high levels is when you get the girls who want to keep competing but not in an NDP environment. With state stream here, competitions are provided by gymnastics nsw for the state stream girls and they get a state championships etc.

 

[Aussie_coach]

We do not usually have competitions broken down by hours in level 4 and above. It is usually done by age only. You would be surprised, but a lot of the time kids on less hours do just as well if not better than kids who are on twice as many hours. A great deal has to do with how those hours are used and the natural skills of the gymnast.

As I mentioned with level 1-3 clubs who do very low hours with their level 4 and above kids usually hold their own competitions and only invite other clubs who do lower hours, there are lots of these comps available so they still have a busy competition season without ever going in any of the sanctioned competitions.

But generally level 7-10 is not worked on those clubs who do lower hours, most cap their programs at level 6 and then the girls move into other fields like coaching, cheerleading, acro, aerobics, trampoline and so on.

No doubt there will exist a gap for those gymnasts who reach level 7-10 and are not able to commit to the high hours required, and it is quite likely that these kids will be absorbed into other gymsports (which is not the intention of the WAG SMC).

But in my state, with these new rules, more kids will stay in WAG longer, more kids will compete and reach higher levels and more kids will be able to do level 7-10 as we currently have no state system. But perhaps in some other states it will be less kids.

 

[COz]

Interested in the thing about skill testing and moving between programs, would that mean gymnasts at a non idp climb could be talent identified through the testing and the club would have to tell them of the opportunities available.

Just because there might be two parallel streams, doesn't mean a club will offer both. I think the intention is to make it easier to cross between streams but you might have to change clubs to do so.
I think this will stop talented kids from being 'trapped' in NDP so if and when they want to change, if they have the ability there is a defined way of comparing levels between the streams.
My guess is that kids performing well in the skills testing will get a big pat on the back, but if a gym doesn't offer the international stream they may well not mention it. After all, what club here would mention it to the parent of a talented 4-5 year old at a club that doesn't offer IDP...

 

[OzZee]

Just because there might be two parallel streams, doesn't mean a club will offer both. I think the intention is to make it easier to cross between streams but you might have to change clubs to do so.
I think this will stop talented kids from being 'trapped' in NDP so if and when they want to change, if they have the ability there is a defined way of comparing levels between the streams.
My guess is that kids performing well in the skills testing will get a big pat on the back, but if a gym doesn't offer the international stream they may well not mention it. After all, what club here would mention it to the parent of a talented 4-5 year old at a club that doesn't offer IDP...

Exactly. Many clubs don't and can't offer IDP (cost/coaches/space). At present kids that could be very successful in IDP are never told about that stream.
If gyms still don't tell kids about the opportunities I don't see that it's any different to now,
they have till level 3 to make the jump.

 

[COz]

Aussie coach has posted in the past about levels at which it's easier to switch to IDP and about the levels you end up in when moving from IDP to NDP. I suspect there are a lot of unwritten rules about this at the moment.
Having it formalized and available for people to see as well as a bunch more crossover levels can only be a good thing. At least IF you discover the other stream then you can see the possibility rather than thinking that there is no way to change over. The proposed equivalent levels went all the way up, not just swapping early on.

 

[Faolmor]

Having read through the changes to the skills for the proposed new program, I notice it says that for girls in Levels 1 and 2, achievement of the level award will be internal and within the club. Does that mean the minimum age of 6 years still applies for competing for these levels? Or is that age limit now applied to competing level 3? Will they still impose an age limit if the "competition" is internal? Or will they now leave it up to the clubs to deem whether, say, a 5 year old is able to complete those skills (such as in the USA with the lower levels, where I believe they have 4 and 5 year olds doing in-house level 1 and 2 competitions)?

Is that how they intend it to work? Or have I misunderstood?