WAG Fast twitch?

[Little Mo]

Apologies if this is answered on other threads but I've noticed some discussions were slow and fast twitch are mentioned.

Can someone explain the difference and how you can tell if your daughter has either please? I remember one of our coaches discussing it in an induction meeting saying for elite they look for a fast twitch but had no idea what she was on about!

 

[kecks]

very short version: there are different type of muscle fibers. some can twitch very fast and produce lots of power; people who's genetic makeup favors these types are fast sprinters, good at jumping high and long, good at everything that needs explosive strength (nearly all athletic events safe endurace based ones like running cross country and the like). the other type is much slower in twichting but can go longer - people with more fibers like these are usually good at endurance stuff but suck at explosive movements. everybody has both types, but some have more of one or the other sort. you can only really know which type you are by invasive methods (they did this with youth athletes in east germany back in the day to determine where the individual athlete should go trainingwise) but an experienced coach can usually tell by watching the athlete jump and sprint (short dashes). common tests are standing long jump, 40 yard dash (better done from a lying start for excluding technique advantages), throwing a shot put ball with both hands to the front or over your head etc. for gym you want fast twitch people obviously. in general it is rather easy to improve endurance in fast twitch people (but not to a competitive level; you will never see someone winning a marathon who is mostly fast twitch but you sure can complete one in a good time) but nearly impossible to really get good speed out of slow folks. they can improve their indivdiual explosive strength and speed tremendosly through the right training (especially during childhood before puberty starts) but they will never ever catch up to the fast twtich kids. it really is a genetic thing.

(but even the most fast twitch person on earth needs to do explosive training at a young age to really fullfill their full potential for speed as an adult. no training means no full speed later on.)

 

[wallinbl]

Muscles are (mostly) made up of two types of fibers - slow twitch (red) and fast twitch (one type of which is white, there are actually three subtypes). The slow twitch fibers carry more oxygen, and are more useful for aerobic activity. The fast twitch fibers are more powerful, contract quickly, but wear out easily. The mix of these fibers varies in each muscle, depending on that muscles general purpose.

People have a mix of fibers, and aren't "fast twitch" or "slow twitch", although people with a higher than average mix of fast twitch get referred to as fast twitch. If you were 100% fast twitch, you probably couldn't run a 5K if you trained your entire life for it.

As for tests, when I was growing up, they did that via weightlifting. I don't know its accuracy, and you probably don't want to do that to your daughter anyway (weightlifting requires proper form).

 

[Becauseisaid]

That is fascinating. I had no idea fast/slow twitch had an actual physical basis.

Thank you.

 

[Little Mo]

Thanks for that. My DD is a VERY fast runner, fastest in her year group out of both girls and boys. Both myself and her dad were sprinters too, struggled with endurance running at all in school. It is really fascinating!

 

[MissLisa]

Just to add to this, there are sub types of muscle fibres that are 'trainable' that everyone has. So even if someone is predominately slow twitch if they train a lot of explosive movements (as gymnasts should do), then some of their muscle fibres will take on the characteristics of fast twitch fibres. The same goes for people who train running marathons they will develop predominately slow twitch muscle fibres. This is why it is very important for training to be designed around the type of movement required in competition. Gymnasts need predominately fast twitch muscle fibres so their training should be structured around this. It means those who are not genetically wired to be explosive athletes will still be able to train to a level of power but may not necessarily be 'power' gymnasts. That being said, this does not mean they can never produce an incredible amount of power they just may have to train more specifically to do so than someone who is wired that way.

Feel free to ask any more questions. It's somewhat nice to be able to use my Sport and Exercise Science degree in a helpful way!

 

[BlairBob]

The chinese apparently test for this via blood testing so I am told.

Many of the old soviet countries profiled the parents.

 

[Midwestmommy]

MissLisa, thanks for your thoughtful response. If I had a dime for every time I heard about a gymnastics coach with no college degree looking at 5 year olds and thinking they are genetic experts-- and can tell by looking at them who should get the opportunity to be a gymnast......and who should not. Ugh. Rather than giving lots of kids the chance to train and see what they can do... Marathon runners really don't talk much about slow twitch and fast twitch. They talk more about energy systems, oxygen uptake, lactate threshold, ability to use fat as fuel, training. It seems to be mostly gymnastics that is obsessed with this whole fast-twitch muscle thing as it relates to screening out kids a couple of years out of diapers.... And trying to spot and train "elite" kids, and screening every potential gymnasts based on those criteria. Sigh. There are fewer Olympians than I have fingers on one hand every four years, they really aren't the bread and butter of this sport. And all gymnasts are "gymnastics people" not just elites or potential elites. Of course a 9 year old training 5 hours a week will not show the same potential as a nine year old training 12 or 15. That ain't rocket science. This whole genetic screening stuff sends shivers down my spine, bad things have happened in history when we humans start thinking too much along those terms.

 

[Midwestmommy]

I know of a couple of athletes who were told by "the gym" in town that they would never be able to optional gymnasts because of their body types, that they didn't have potential in the sport. Fast forward a few years and those same two were welcomed back to "that gym" as a Level 8 and a Level 9 after another gym gave them a chance and they turned out to be wonderful athletes. It's pretty amazing that these kids and parents went back to that first gym that was giving them the "keep them in rec shuffle", but there you go. You never know in this crazy sport. The only guarantee is that the top five gymnasts in the country in a given year are very unlikely to be the same five two years later.
PS (and ducking for cover): Go Gabby!! Was happy to hear you were at national team camp last week.

 

[vagymmomma]

I know of a couple of athletes who were told by "the gym" in town that they would never be able to optional gymnasts because of their body types, that they didn't have potential in the sport. Fast forward a few years and those same two were welcomed back to "that gym" as a Level 8 and a Level 9 after another gym gave them a chance and they turned out to be wonderful athletes. It's pretty amazing that these kids and parents went back to that first gym that was giving them the "keep them in rec shuffle", but there you go. You never know in this crazy sport. The only guarantee is that the top five gymnasts in the country in a given year are very unlikely to be the same five two years later.
PS (and ducking for cover): Go Gabby!! Was happy to hear you were at national team camp last week.

I like both your posts, but I think the challenge is that a coach/owner/program director has to make choices based on limited information they can get in a class or tryout. This involves some subjective decisions on what physical features should be valued. Are they (and their parents short)? Are they flexible? Are they strong? There are generally limited spots on a team, so tough choices need to be made. Sometimes the wrong choices are made. And some gyms choose what I think are the wrong limits (i.e., for example age as a criteria -- a 10 yr old is too old at some gyms for L3). And I say this as a parent of a gymnast who probably 9 out of 10 times probably would not have been asked to join the team. She's training L9 now (has never repeated), but she has the back and shoulder flexibility of a board (still!). I think she's fast twitch though. Flips and runs really fast.

PS= I was also happy to see Gabby at camp (and back at Chow's?!?!?).

 

[Deleted member D3987]

MissLisa, thanks for your thoughtful response. If I had a dime for every time I heard about a gymnastics coach with no college degree looking at 5 year olds and thinking they are genetic experts-- and can tell by looking at them who should get the opportunity to be a gymnast......and who should not. Ugh. Rather than giving lots of kids the chance to train and see what they can do... Marathon runners really don't talk much about slow twitch and fast twitch. They talk more about energy systems, oxygen uptake, lactate threshold, ability to use fat as fuel, training. It seems to be mostly gymnastics that is obsessed with this whole fast-twitch muscle thing as it relates to screening out kids a couple of years out of diapers.... And trying to spot and train "elite" kids, and screening every potential gymnasts based on those criteria. Sigh. There are fewer Olympians than I have fingers on one hand every four years, they really aren't the bread and butter of this sport. And all gymnasts are "gymnastics people" not just elites or potential elites. Of course a 9 year old training 5 hours a week will not show the same potential as a nine year old training 12 or 15. That ain't rocket science. This whole genetic screening stuff sends shivers down my spine, bad things have happened in history when we humans start thinking too much along those terms.

well, it is important to know whether they a have a college degree or not. you don't want to see what happens when a coach (thinks they did) teaches a double back to a kid that is truly slow twitched.

the "genetic screening stuff" i prefer to call skill selection. skill selection points to body type, twitch, etc; amongst other factors. there are just some things that some kids will never be able to learn because of twitch and body type. this knowledge and the choices about are a safety issue.

 

[wallinbl]

Marathon runners really don't talk much about slow twitch and fast twitch. They talk more about energy systems, oxygen uptake, lactate threshold, ability to use fat as fuel, training. It seems to be mostly gymnastics that is obsessed with this whole fast-twitch muscle thing

Ever deal with track? No amount of training will get your good cross country runners to win the 100m. Likewise, you're not likely to find a top 100m runner that does well at cross country.

And, yes, energy systems factor into this. Fast twitch fibers rely on ATP, part of the alactic anaerobic energy system, where slow twitch fibers are more dependent on the aerobic energy system.

 

[gymdog]

well, it is important to know whether they a have a college degree or not. you don't want to see what happens when a coach (thinks they did) teaches a double back to a kid that is truly slow twitched.

the "genetic screening stuff" i prefer to call skill selection. skill selection points to body type, twitch, etc; amongst other factors. there are just some things that some kids will never be able to learn because of twitch and body type. this knowledge and the choices about are a safety issue.

Yes. I have a variety of very skilled, winning athletes for their level on one team. Most are fairly fast twitch. One is extremely so. It was incredible to see this child at 6 years old do RO BHS BHS with incredible speed, distance, and rebound. Even at 5 years old she would do technically incorrect tumbling with huge rebounds.

Then I have another child who wins all the time. She is not fast twitch. I literally worried myself almost sick over this child's tumbling at one point. But she is so strong. Her strength is amazing. She is amazing on bars. So I thought who knows what I'll do but at least we have that.

Fast forward six months and something clicked with tumbling and jumping. Technically, her tumbling and vaulting is very proficient. Not explosive, but very proficient, and therefore fast enough. Very good body tension due to her strength also helps a lot in this regard.

So overall my point is explosive power is necessary for the tumbling and vaulting skills at the top level of those events. BUT with technical proficiency, strength, AND APPROPRIATE SKILL SELECTION, a less fast twitched athlete can still do great things. Especially on bars.

Perhaps the best example of this is Nastia Liukin. She was never going to do a double double on floor, but in the event she excelled in (bars) her technique was so great that it left a lasting mark on the sport. Gymnastics became a little bit better because of that. Most good coaches know that.

 

[Midwestmommy]

Yep, sure have dealt with track! And marathons! I think very truly elite marathoners have an amazing oxygen uptake. And milers, for example, need a lot more speed than they get from mammal "slow twitch" muscles. There are LOTS of track distances in between 100M and the marathon which are a more gray area. 400M runners for instance, a very curious bunch! and 800M runners too. Slow twitch muscles won't get them the speed they need to succeed. But they also won't usually be standout 100M runners. Do good JO gymnasts = 100M sprinters in terms of the "fast twitch." and optimal gymnastics body type?

Well it's a lot more complicated than that. And I don't think very many coaches can look at four years olds and really see who will be good JO gymnast. Though if they track kids to team at age 5 and don't give anyone else the opportunity for training and hours, they will be 100% accurate in their picks!

Give the ones that want it 6 hours a week of decent conditioning and coaching, then I think you can tell a lot more....

Here's food for thought.. If you took a top high school track team, had them quit running, and had them train gymnastics for 2 years.... (talking girls here).... Who would prevail in the gym? The 100/200 sprinters? The 200/400 sprinters? The 400/800 runners? A fluke 3200 meter itty bitty gal? Then put the clock back 12 years to age 5 and ask coaches with their own personal biases and filters, look at them as children (though would need a time machine).... Who would they pick? How good is their crystal ball? Haha I bet most of them would pick that itty bitty 2400m gal who was itty bitty but really mentally tough back then. See what I mean?

I think you can tell once they start learning some skills which is why I don't like this screening of kids at age 4/5/6 by mostly people who know less about the human body and genome than they pretend to.... And possibly less when they try to look at their parents....are they also checking birth certificates and doing paternity tests to make sure they are actually making the right assumptions about biological parents? I am saying that tongue in cheek.

PS, I am not talking about looking at the JO level 4/5 team who are already getting signifant time in the gym and picking out the one or two in the club who have great natural talent for gymnastics... Even us dumb parents can usually pick out those. That's not to say they are the ones who will still be there in 10 years though.....that depends on a lot of factors!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Ever deal with track? No amount of training will get your good cross country runners to win the 100m. Likewise, you're not likely to find a top 100m runner that does well at cross country.

And, yes, energy systems factor into this. Fast twitch fibers rely on ATP, part of the alactic anaerobic energy system, where slow twitch fibers are more dependent on the aerobic energy system.

absolutely. ask Bolt to run a marathon...boom! ambulatory!! lol.

 

[littlegirlsdream]

So I am curious then, are there varying degrees of fast twitch muscle fibers and or body types in one group. Does muscle fiber type effect flexibility also?What is more likely to lead to a safer and possibly more successful upper level gymnast? For example, my oldest I would guess is fast twitch and is the more square, short muscular type, She is very flexible through shoulders and legs and moderately so through the back. Younger DD is a leaner build but also muscular but unlike sister is much tighter by nature, but she appears to have very fast muscle twitch. She is very strong and fast for her age but not at all flexible. Both are in gymnastics but they excel in totally different events.

 

[gymdog]

Midwestmommy, I'm not sure I really understand your comments fully. I don't believe in preteams for kids under 5, but by 5 years old there tends to be a pretty clear indicator. By that age a child with some natural gymnastics ability will generally be able to copy a cartwheel motion pretty accurately (pattern the movement, not with gymnastics form). Other 5 year olds will take a year. Also, upper body strength is a large factor in be able to do any gymnastics movement accurately. Then you have all kinds of factors affected by the vestibular system as far as whether the child appears balanced, can go backwards and move fast or slow appropriate to what they're trying to do. Watch enough kids in a progressive program and you'll see a difference.

The problem I think is some people are watching programs where correct progressions are not used so none of the kids are learning cartwheels. Then it might appear more random or based on body type.

In my program, kids who have ADHD type behaviors tend to be the fastest and most accurate learners. In the other style of program, they might not make it to the end of the first class.

That said if you use progressions, everyone gets a chance to learn the basic skills. There's a wide range of body types that can learn gymnastics skills, but some will be more limited than others. There are other issues that can come up genetically that are very limiting in terms of how far you can progress in gymnastics. Some can be predicted early on, others are unpredictable.

My sisters (close in age) started in the exact same classes I did. To this time preteams even for 5-6 year olds were unheard of, therefore I continued to progress at the top of the rec classes. I loved gymnastics. They didn't exactly hate it, but they didn't have quite the same positive experience as me. At that time generally you steadily worked through various levels until you had a back tuck/kip etc then you competed. My sisters never progressed past basic rec moves because they don't have upper body strength. I was not given any more training hours, but I naturally have upper body strength and have wide shoulders and narrow hips. I was able to do things like pullovers and climb ropes naturally. The first day the director fairly bluntly told my mom that I would do well in gymnastics and my sisters could learn a lot but wouldn't compete. My mom appreciated the honesty but kept them in it anyway for a few years. The assessment was exactly right, but I wasn't given any special training. I'm just naturally more inclined to gymnastics activities. And by the way I am not amazingly talented by any stretch, just somewhat better than average.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

pretty good post, Gymdog.

 

[Midwestmommy]

Just saying.... Give 6 year old kids 5 hours a week with decent coaching and conditioning, then you can tell a lot more after a year than from a one hour a week rec. class...... And screening 5 year olds by body type, well I just think that's a whole lot of people believing in their cracked crystal balls.... not talking about the one in a million standout, just all the other kiddos. And I am very aware that those who love and treasure their crystal balls and won't admit there are any cracks at all, will never agree with me, that's OK.

 

[wheezy]

I can't tell which my DD is. She seems so slow at running and tumbling. Yet at times she is so fast. She can BT the highest out of the compulsories yet is tiny. How can I tell??