WAG JO Nationals and NIT

[wandrewsjr]

^^Agree, there is no way it is just a numbers issue. Region 7 is big, but I think it's only slightly bigger than Region 1(865 total this year at the 3 levels), which fits all three in one weekend. Essentially 2 separate meets side by side in a large venue, 3 session Friday, 4 Saturday and 3 Sunday. Not crazy about it, it does stretch the coaches from the smaller clubs a little thin. I think having 2 separate meet weekends, one 8 and one 9/10, which most Regions do, is ideal. The only thing I can think of is Region 7 has decided that they would rather have 3 separate meets than have the girls competing all day on Friday. Because you can fit up to 640 girls in 3 full days of competition, and I can't imagine their numbers at 9/10 are bigger than that.

 

[Gymmonkeymomma]

Well, I can only image that the powers to be do not feel there is enough space and/or time to do it all in 1 weekend.

Being part of the group which has hosted a 9/10 State meet in Region 7, I can attest to how exhausting it was, so really cannot imagine doing this on a larger scale.

At 9 Regionals this weekend, there were approx 60 girls per session (each of the 16 age groups had 30-31 kids except for one which had 20-something). Each session was 4-5 hours. At 10 Regionals there will be another 250 gymnasts. That's a total if 730 kids, even if you shoved 60 in each session that's 3days of 4sessions each - physically and mentally challenging! 4 sessions/day with 60 kids no matter how efficient you are would take minimum 4 hours each, so you're already at 16 hours!!! Also need to add in time to set up, break day equipment plus a quick cleanup between sessions and replenishing supplies.

I suppose if you were in a HUGE venue where you could have 2-3 sets of competition equipment, judges, etc running at the same time it may be doable but you would need a pretty big volunteer pool as well to do that's required. That wouldn't account for the coaching issue though.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Region 7 is big, 385 at level 9 Regionals this past weekend, and if they will have 250 at level 10's this weekend, that does put them close to the numbers that wouldn't fit into one meet, even with all day 3 days.

 

[Gymmonkeymomma]

Because you can fit up to 640 girls in 3 full days of competition, and I can't imagine their numbers at 9/10 are bigger than that.

Haha guess we were posting at the same time. Total 9/10's for R7 that were registered/expected was over 650 (from the 9's meet scores posted for 390). The #'s in my post above were taken from earlier info posted

 

[wandrewsjr]

It does make me curious if they will ever consider redistributing the Regions at the National level. I believe the proposal of moving Norcal from Region 1 to 2 came directly from Region 2. It really isn't fair to have Regions with 50 level 10's competing at Nationals against Regions that have 250 level 10's, especially when it is a problem that could be solved. I know complete balance could never be achieved, but could make it so each Region had between 100 and 200 level 10's on average by just shifting one or 2 states per Region.

 

[Gymmonkeymomma]

Region 7 is big, 385 at level 9 Regionals this past weekend.

414 athletes were registered. So the sessions/times have to be based on who is registered, you never know how many will scratch till the day of.... And it's not like you can split the age groups to fit into a minimum # of sessions, so you're already looking at 6-8 sessions depending on the age group sizes.

 

[Gymmonkeymomma]

It really isn't fair to have Regions with 50 level 10's.

Maybe I should talk to DH about moving to Region 2

 

[coachmolly]

I guess maybe it could be a way to encourage mid-sized gyms to host regionals? Like you said, that number of athletes requires a ton of volunteers and resources, so I imagine only the "mega gyms" would be able to host, just switching between the same 3 or 4 locations each year. With separating them it would make it at least slightly more manageable for the smaller programs to host, and earn the money that comes along with hosting.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Maybe I should talk to DH about moving to Region 2

I would love to hear from coaches in Region 2. Sure it's nice knowing you are almost assured of your level 10's going to Nationals if they get a 34 at Regionals, but it can't be fun going into Nationals every year KNOWING you are likely to finish last in every age group in the team competition.

 

[htimcj]

I would love to hear from coaches in Region 2. Sure it's nice knowing you are almost assured of your level 10's going to Nationals if they get a 34 at Regionals, but it can't be fun going into Nationals every year KNOWING you are likely to finish last in every age group in the team competition.

Not a coach but as a parent in Region Two, our girls who do get to nationals aren't necessarily last, they have been competitive finishing in the middle of their age groups. so just becuase we are small and are almost guarenteed a place doesn't mean we will get our rear ends kicked

 

[wandrewsjr]

Not a coach but as a parent in Region Two, our girls who do get to nationals aren't necessarily last, they have been competitive finishing in the middle of their age groups. so just becuase we are small and are almost guarenteed a place doesn't mean we will get our rear ends kicked

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to slight the individual gymnasts and their potential to place individually, there are some great ones from Region 2, I was speaking of the Regional team competition. http://usagym.org/PDFs/Results/w_12jo_complete.pdf

 

[gymgal]

I would love to hear from coaches in Region 2. Sure it's nice knowing you are almost assured of your level 10's going to Nationals if they get a 34 at Regionals, but it can't be fun going into Nationals every year KNOWING you are likely to finish last in every age group in the team competition.

Probably doesn't even phase them because their eye is on the individual finishes. If you go into competition knowing you don't have the number of girls needed to compete for team, it makes it pretty easy to steer your goals elsewhere.

 

[Committed]

Wow! Well.....by looking at the huge number of gymnasts in Region 1 ....I sure hope NorCal moves to Region 2 soon!

 

[gymgal]

It does make me curious if they will ever consider redistributing the Regions at the National level. I believe the proposal of moving Norcal from Region 1 to 2 came directly from Region 2. It really isn't fair to have Regions with 50 level 10's competing at Nationals against Regions that have 250 level 10's, especially when it is a problem that could be solved. I know complete balance could never be achieved, but could make it so each Region had between 100 and 200 level 10's on average by just shifting one or 2 states per Region.

i really don't like the idea of splitting states between regions... what about setting up a system like what region 8 does for their 7-8 regionals: the number of spots a state gets is based on how many gymnasts they have competing at that level for that year. So, if FL has 50% of all the region 8 L8 gymnasts, they get 50% of the allotted spots. it would certainly be trickier at the national level because you would have to calculate based on the age divisions vs region 8 where they just take the highest scorers regardless of age.

This would address the issue of larger regions not being represented fairly. Of course, you would want to make sure the smaller regions have a fair representation at the national level, which may mean there be a minimal # of spots per region.

And if they didn't want to do this for the championships, at least try it with the NIT. It really stinks to see girls with high 37s stay home when in other regions, girls are getting through with 34s. It is not a true representation of gymnastics across the country. The girl who came in 10th b/c she took extra steps on her landings could easily contend for the podiums.

Just food for thought.

 

[gymkat]

i really don't like the idea of splitting states between regions...

Keep in mind that NorCal functions autonomously from SoCal. They already are, essentially, two states.

 

[LemonLime]

The problem would not be solved by moving NorCal to Region 2 and would be made worse for every region except for 1 and 2. Regions 3, 5 and 7 which - along with 1 - win most national team awards, would no longer receive extra spots from Region 2. The entire national geography needs to change to balance the number of entrants along with balancing the scoring potential from the regions. There must be a statistical way to balance the regions based on historic scores or, as a second choice, by using entrants numbers such as how Regions 8 and 3 calculate the number of entrants per state at Level 8 regionals (as gymgal noted). Easterns and Westerns used a similar procedure as recently as 2009.

The USFSA (figure skating) has split California in half since the 1960s. It works beautifully and NorCal and SoCal USAG already function in this manner (gymkat).

The manner in which extra spots are filled is well known in the regions that benefit from the practice. Region 3 coaches were told about the extra spots before the meet even began. Parents from Region 3 were reviewing Region 2 results in the stands during the meet. You do not know how many gymnasts have scored a 34.00 before the meets begin, but you do know how many have registered.

In the past, spots have been filled not only from Region 2, but also with less regularity from regions 4 and 6. Over time, however, those regions have naturally strengthened without intervention.

Taking an extreme example, Sr. A Region 3 qualified gymnasts with a 38.00 and above. Sr. A Region 2 qualified gymnasts with a 34.55 and above. Meaning, there was a six fall difference. Life isn't fair and gymnastics isn't fair, but even taking regional scoring differences into account, there is a clear difference among the regions that patently must be fixed.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Region 8 qualifies each state's top 50% of level 7/8 gymnasts. So if FL has 200 level 8s, then 100 get to go; if MS has 20 level 8s, then 10 get to go. It's not if one state has 50% of the level 7/8 in the region then they get to send 50% of the athletes for the competiion, each state sends their top 50%.

And region 8 had 590 competitors at 9/10 Regionals, and did it in 3 days with 11 sessions, averaging about 30 per age group. With one more session they could have fielded the number that Region 7 apparently had, so I also don't get why they have individual weekends for each optional level regionals. I'm just glad I don't have to pay those coaches' fees for all those weekends!

Here's the chart for Region 8:
____________________________________________________________________________________
*
LEVEL 8:
*
*********************************** Total # OF
STATE*********** *********************** GYMNASTS
*
AL******************************* ** 42*(8 team + 34)*** **
*
FL******************************* **92*(8 team + 84)*****************************************************
*
GA****************************** **69*(8 team + 61)*****************************************************
*
LA******************************* **17*(8 team + 9)******************************************************* *
*
MS****************************** ** 11*(8 team + 3)******************************************************* *
*
NC****************************** **56*(8 team + 48)***************************************************** **********
*
SC****************************** **30*(8 team + 22)***************************************************** *
*
TN****************************** **31*(8 team + 23)***************************************************** ************************************ *********************************** -------
*********************************** *348****************
So for example, TN has 62 or 63 level 8s, so 31 get to attend with the top 8 making up their team.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I would love someone toexplain why the qualifying to nationals keeps changing. It's always been top 7. Now this year some age groups are taking 8 or 9 and not because of ties. How is that fair? Are certain age groups special? Because if you take 9 from one age group, what about the girls that were 9th in the other age groups? Are they not worthy enough? Or one who placed 9th only gets to go to NIT and has to pay her own fee while another who placed 9th and gets to be on the team and her way paid plus all the apparel. It's not right! Then you have the group where they take 9 and 10th and 11th place go to NIT, but the other girls who placed 10th and 11th don't get to go. Can of worms!! It is going to (has already) caused a lot of bitterness and sadness.

They need to set a criteria and stick to it across all age groups. It's not right or fair to do otherwise.

GAgymmom, you're not thinking this through. gymnastics changes every single year. the number of gymnasts we have at all levels changes every single year. the attrition rate at all levels, including level 9 & 10, changes every single year.

with that said, it has been top 7 and 8 age groups for several years now. i'd give you a year it started but i can't remember due to my brain changing every single year. but that means 56 (top 7 X 8 age groups) from each region each year. that is what USAG and Connie Maloney (the JO boss at national office) attempt to accomplish each year. at least that much remains continuos.

BUT, how many kids they have in each region change every single year. consider this...there are 8 regions that comprise the contiguous 50 states. 6 states support 95% of the gymnastics being done in the United States. and those 6 states are the ones sending the majority of the kids to their regionals with a 34.00 or more. and it will be those majority that will comprise the top 7 for nationals.

understand? go to Maine. someone up there tell us how many 10's you have. 1? this goes for approx 12 other states. some have NONE.

now as far as the 34.00 goes. again, my brain changes every year just like this sport and i can't remember what year it was. a certain region left home 18 girls who had scored 37.00 at regionals. and in that year a certain region only had 14 of their gymnasts score a 37.00. 30 of them were between a 34 and a 35.5.

but in that same year, national poached 15 of those girls from that certain region and they competed for region 2. understand? national office can't predict just how many kids and what they will score every year. just not possible. but i will tell you that Connie Maloney is the brains that make this all happen. her vision. and has done so for several years.

and NIT was born to give those great athletes an additional opportunity to compete and be seen by the college coaches also. and give them a 2nd chance at a national competition in the event they had sucked wind at their regionals and they could be with their teammates. it's a good thing. but yes, there will be some gymnast competing for their regional team that qualified with a 34 and the NIT gymnast didn't qualify with a 36.20. life is not fair and gymnastics is not perfect

you know that i have stated that gymnastics is imperfect. and there it is.

 

[Natasha]

Region 8 qualifies each state's top 50% of level 7/8 gymnasts. So if FL has 200 level 8s, then 100 get to go; if MS has 20 level 8s, then 10 get to go. It's not if one state has 50% of the level 7/8 in the region then they get to send 50% of the athletes for the competiion, each state sends their top 50%.

And region 8 had 590 competitors at 9/10 Regionals, and did it in 3 days with 11 sessions, averaging about 30 per age group. With one more session they could have fielded the number that Region 7 apparently had, so I also don't get why they have individual weekends for each optional level regionals. I'm just glad I don't have to pay those coaches' fees for all those weekends!

Here's the chart for Region 8:
____________________________________________________________________________________
*
LEVEL 8:
*
*********************************** Total # OF
STATE*********** *********************** GYMNASTS
*
AL******************************* ** 42*(8 team + 34)*** **
*
FL******************************* **92*(8 team + 84)*****************************************************
*
GA****************************** **69*(8 team + 61)*****************************************************
*
LA******************************* **17*(8 team + 9)******************************************************* *
*
MS****************************** ** 11*(8 team + 3)******************************************************* *
*
NC****************************** **56*(8 team + 48)***************************************************** **********
*
SC****************************** **30*(8 team + 22)***************************************************** *
*
TN****************************** **31*(8 team + 23)***************************************************** ************************************ *********************************** -------
*********************************** *348****************
So for example, TN has 62 or 63 level 8s, so 31 get to attend with the top 8 making up their team.

Although it is close to 50% for each state at L8 (much lower percentage for L7), it is not exactly a flat percentage. There is a predesignated number of slots for L7 and L8 at the regionals, then each state gets a certain number based on their percentage of athletes who scored above a 32. Then, there are some additional slots divided up among the region based on a certain % of the total number of athletes in each state who scored above a 34. I don't pretend to even understand the specifics...it is a little like taxes. I can tell you in our state it was more like 43% of L8 this year (as opposed to 50% last year) and less than 30% of L7's who qualified to regionals.

 

[Natasha]

Dunno is right, there really is no way to ever make it completely fair. We live in a low-power state in a high-power region. So, no accessibility to a high-power gym with increased training hours and coaches with lots of experience training successful L10s or gyms with teams of L10s. (usually one or 2 if any at a gym.) So, the top L10s in our state are scoring 36's and once in a while a gymnast who can get a 37. However, we live in a region where you need a low to mid 37 to go to Nationals.