WAG TOPs Hopes Elite results - secret?

[gymdog]

I would say it works so well because the US population is huge and relatively wealthy. The US has 318 million, UK has 66 million, Canada 33 million, pretty apparent that the bigger the population the better chance you have of fielding a winning team every time, especially when there is money to fund it.

My fault with the system is the apparent lack of clarity. The actual system is fine, though coaches could be given better guidelines to help them filter gymnasts who are suited to the process.

I think that coach education is key and when I first wandered in to a US gym 16 years ago I was very surprised to discover that there was no real coach education system. This clearly is changing and evolving.

Well, exactly. Maybe it's just population but we don't have a higher population than China. Anyway, obviously before a vast shift and growth in USA Gymnastics over the past 3 decades or so we weren't having these results.

The system we have in place now has a big emphasis on raw talent identification. The idea is to identify kids with talent that could be developed with the support of the National Team staff, not necessarily to just identify kids who are already 100% ready for elite (because by then it would cut a lot of kids out). The early iteration of this was the first version of TOPs, and since then many things have changed with an emphasis on skill development as well. Even when kids aren't in the program they are identified and brought into the development system when NT staff sees potential. Trinity Thomas was spotted at a meet and invited to the ranch and later qualified Jr Elite.

So that is why it would run counter to their goals to say kids have to have a certain result before they ever get on the radar of the NT staff. Even when a kid might not have a good result at a qualifier, if that kid is really talented but just wasn't prepared, the NT staff might still be interested. If she is really good but messed up a few times at TOPs national testing, again, they want to have a system in place where they can see her again.

As far as some of it being a moneymaker, I agree, it definitely is. Like any level of the sport, those at the bottom of the pyramid are propping up the top, so to speak. But I don't know if that's any secret and I don't really know any way around that because we need money to fund the program - it's not funded by our government like in some places. So that's just the way it is in all levels and all programs of USA Gymnastics.

 

[gasrgoose]

I would say it works so well because the US population is huge and relatively wealthy. The US has 318 million, UK has 66 million, Canada 33 million, pretty apparent that the bigger the population the better chance you have of fielding a winning team every time, especially when there is money to fund it.

My fault with the system is the apparent lack of clarity. The actual system is fine, though coaches could be given better guidelines to help them filter gymnasts who are suited to the process.

I think that coach education is key and when I first wandered in to a US gym 16 years ago I was very surprised to discover that there was no real coach education system. This clearly is changing and evolving.

I don't see a lack of clarity, I think it's perfectly clear.

If you have a gymnast you think is gifted to be an elite gymnast but don't have to experience to coach her to the elite level. Sign her up for TOPS testing, if she makes it to A camp then the national team staff will have an opportunity to evaluate her potential. Here is where most people don't like the answer the national team staff gives them (that the kid is a nice gymnast but not elite potential). Or if you have the coaching experience take her to an Elite qualifier and see how she does. Again many people don't like the scores they receive and like to say it is a biased process. The only bias I've seen is they want the truly exceptional gymnast. The process is not perfect and it is possible that a kid could not be noticed by the national team staff until it is too late. However, the national team staff's job is to win on the international stage and they are clearly doing that.

 

[QueenBee]

I think this is very much a US phenomena as I cannot think of any other country who takes kids sports to that level. SO one breeds the other, a bit chicken and the egg?

I definitely think this is a US phenomenon. You also see it in US college admissions to elite schools. Same insanity. Same unrealistic expectation set up. Same parental pressure.

Perhaps one of the biggest differences is that everything seems to be privatized here in the US. So, in theory - any gym could be training elite potential athletes, as there isn't a centralized system to identify those athletes super early and place them all together in one track. Same thing in club soccer, ballet, football, baseball...any sport really.

And there are so many "enrichment" programs offered to children academically (again private companies and clubs) that you have people thinking they are grooming their kids to a full merit scholarship at Harvard without ever realizing (before admission season is complete) - that Harvard doesn't offer merit scholarships. You can't get a full ride there unless your parents are poor enough (they meet full financial need, no merit awarded). They also don't offer athletic scholarships to any Ivy league colleges - something parents will argue about even though there is nothing to argue.

I guess you can say the system is messed up here, but it is not specific to gymnastics. That's all I'm trying to say.

 

[bogwoppit]

I don't see a lack of clarity, I think it's perfectly clear.

Lack of clarity with the scores and meets, not the actual process.

If you have links to all that info then please share.

 

[Gymmommy71]

So sounds like the only qualification for a kid to show up at an elite qualifier and test is for them to have a coach/gym owner who thinks they are "elite potential" and take them to test. I can think of a lot of ways where certain parents could get taken advantage of if thats how it works (cause everyone wants to believe their kid is special), so I wonder if there are some kind of consequences if the same gym or coach repeatedly brings kids to qualifiers who are nowhere near meeting the requirements?

Just reminds me of that scene in Stick It where he says "that's the Gold" instead of goal .

 

[gasrgoose]

Ok I just read the beginning of this thread and bogwoppit's 2nd post. So you think they don't post the scores at elite qualifiers so more girls will qualify to support the costs of the true elites? My experience has shown the exact opposite, USA gymnastics wants less girls qualifying Hopes & Elite. If it was the conspiracy you speak of then why and how did the results from Glider get out? If they wanted more girls to qualify, they could/would make it easier, wouldn't they???

 

[bogwoppit]

Ok I just read the beginning of this thread and bogwoppit's 2nd post. So you think they don't post the scores at elite qualifiers so more girls will qualify to support the costs of the true elites? My experience has shown the exact opposite, USA gymnastics wants less girls qualifying Hopes & Elite. If it was the conspiracy you speak of then why and how did the results from Glider get out? If they wanted more girls to qualify, they could/would make it easier, wouldn't they???

Really good question Gargoose. Me and a couple of coach friends and gym fans have been watching this for a while. Talked about it extensively in fact.

Results seem to be withheld often from public view. That is a fact. No idea why Gliders results were out there so quickly and on the USAG site, that has not been the norm at all.

Meets at the ranch are essentially closed to the public in "different" than regular meet conditions, that is also a fact.

I think lots of girls test elite because their coaches tell them, and their parents, that they are good enough to qualify, when clearly lots of girls are not up to it. Maybe their coaches are to up to it either.

I think USAG needs a certain number of girls to get to camps (Tops B and DIC) and elite meets to meet their financial goals. They do move the goal posts yearly to make that happen.

I also think the system is a pyramid, the weaker girls financially support the top girls, they also provide numbers to create "competition" at elite meets.

In reality less girls should be testing elites and hopes, sad to see girls that are totally not ready put out there. The numbers that qualify essentially remain the same, because USAG sets the bar height. I do not think USAG wants "more girls to qualify", there is no need. The USA just does not send the Nat team to compete that often to justify it.

 

[gymdog]

So sounds like the only qualification for a kid to show up at an elite qualifier and test is for them to have a coach/gym owner who thinks they are "elite potential" and take them to test. I can think of a lot of ways where certain parents could get taken advantage of if thats how it works (cause everyone wants to believe their kid is special), so I wonder if there are some kind of consequences if the same gym or coach repeatedly brings kids to qualifiers who are nowhere near meeting the requirements?

Just reminds me of that scene in Stick It where he says "that's the Gold" instead of goal .

They get low scores and don't qualify. That's the consequence. You can't do optionals or anything else until you qualify elite compulsory with the basic skills (which are not level 10 routines, not by a long shot). Again they are looking for amplitude, flexibility, body alignment, and form (straight arms and legs and toe point) on the basic skills to see if the child has the body type and muscle type for elite gymnastics which could then be developed for upper optional skills. If they don't have that, they score low and don't qualify. Presumably they'll eventually give up. Maybe that seems harsh but that's also exactly how it would work if you instituted a JO screening requirement but kids would just fail to make it there or kids would make it there due to it being an optional routine who could not qualify compulsories. So doesn't really make sense. Any intake system is going to screen out kids who are not ready, that's just how it is. Plenty of kids competing all 4 events in JO levels scoring sub 32s also, they will either continue to be unsuccessful or it will be a wake up call to step back.

 

[gymdog]

There's nothing to think about the system being a pyramid, it is a pyramid. Again this isn't propped up by our government (maybe they get a little money or tax status but not the primary operating budget and it's not a governmental organization), USA Gymnastics funds itself through member services and it's a pyramid in all respects from level 1/bronze all the way up to the Olympic team.

 

[gymdog]

That said I doubt most of the Hopes/Elite stuff is really propping anything up, primarily probably offsetting the cost, there still isn't enough kids by a long shot any way you cut it plus a lot of expense going into those meets and camps (staffing and judging from a very limited and professional pool). Mostly being propped up by the huge numbers well below that.

 

[Jenny]

They get low scores and don't qualify. That's the consequence. You can't do optionals or anything else until you qualify elite compulsory with the basic skills (which are not level 10 routines, not by a long shot). Again they are looking for amplitude, flexibility, body alignment, and form (straight arms and legs and toe point) on the basic skills to see if the child has the body type and muscle type for elite gymnastics which could then be developed for upper optional skills. If they don't have that, they score low and don't qualify. Presumably they'll eventually give up. Maybe that seems harsh but that's also exactly how it would work if you instituted a JO screening requirement but kids would just fail to make it there or kids would make it there due to it being an optional routine who could not qualify compulsories. So doesn't really make sense. Any intake system is going to screen out kids who are not ready, that's just how it is. Plenty of kids competing all 4 events in JO levels scoring sub 32s also, they will either continue to be unsuccessful or it will be a wake up call to step back.

I didn't know you couldn't compete the elite optional bit until you had passed the compulsory bit. I know people enter both in a weekend. If they don't pass the compulsory one do they have to withdraw from the optional one? or are they allowed to compete.

 

[wandrewsjr]

They get low scores and don't qualify. That's the consequence. You can't do optionals or anything else until you qualify elite compulsory with the basic skills (which are not level 10 routines, not by a long shot). Again they are looking for amplitude, flexibility, body alignment, and form (straight arms and legs and toe point) on the basic skills to see if the child has the body type and muscle type for elite gymnastics which could then be developed for upper optional skills. If they don't have that, they score low and don't qualify. Presumably they'll eventually give up. Maybe that seems harsh but that's also exactly how it would work if you instituted a JO screening requirement but kids would just fail to make it there or kids would make it there due to it being an optional routine who could not qualify compulsories. So doesn't really make sense. Any intake system is going to screen out kids who are not ready, that's just how it is. Plenty of kids competing all 4 events in JO levels scoring sub 32s also, they will either continue to be unsuccessful or it will be a wake up call to step back.

Are you sure this is the case? There are hopes girls that competed in the optional hopes sessions at Gliders who only scored in the mid 20's in the compulsory session. And junior elites who competed in the junior elite optional session that only scored in the 30 range on their compulsories.

 

[Jenny]

Are you sure this is the case? There are hopes girls that competed in the optional hopes sessions at Gliders who only scored in the mid 20's in the compulsory session. And junior elites who competed in the junior elite optional session that only scored in the 30 range on their compulsories.

I think that if you enter both at the same meet they allow you to do them both even if you don't score well in the compulsory bit.

 

[bogwoppit]

Are you sure this is the case? There are hopes girls that competed in the optional hopes sessions at Gliders who only scored in the mid 20's in the compulsory session. And junior elites who competed in the junior elite optional session that only scored in the 30 range on their compulsories.

I see that. Interesting.

 

[wandrewsjr]

This thread has brought up something I had never thought about before. I can't enter a JO kid in a LEVEL FIVE competition without having her first prove her proficiency at level 4, or go through a petition process to prove her readiness. But a coach can enter a kid in an elite qualifier to compete the elite compulsories and optional routines with no prior verification of any level of skill proficiency?! Yikes!

 

[bookworm]

Are you sure this is the case? There are hopes girls that competed in the optional hopes sessions at Gliders who only scored in the mid 20's in the compulsory session. And junior elites who competed in the junior elite optional session that only scored in the 30 range on their compulsories.

Back when my daughter did elite, you could enter both the compulsory and optional sessions but you were only considered to "be an elite" if you passed both...back then they needed a 36 for compulsory and a 53.00 for optionals ( for the Jrs)...and the big gatekeeper back then was the compulsory score. My daughter competed with several girls who got their optional score but we're never clean enough to get the compulsory score...and they kept coming back to try year after year! And these were some decent gymnasts who went on to do quite well in NCAA...

I'm not sure if it still applies anymore but back in the day, once you got a passing compulsory score you were done with that and only ever had to test optional year to year..

 

[wandrewsjr]

Back when my daughter did elite, you could enter both the compulsory and optional sessions but you were only considered to "be an elite" if you passed both...back then they needed a 36 for compulsory and a 53.00 for optionals ( for the Jrs)...and the big gatekeeper back then was the compulsory score. My daughter competed with several girls who got their optional score but we're never clean enough to get the compulsory score...and they kept coming back to try year after year! And these were some decent gymnasts who went on to do quite well in NCAA...

I'm not sure if it still applies anymore but back in the day, once you got a passing compulsory score you were done with that and only ever had to test optional year to year..

Yep, it seems to still be this way, but as others have pointed out, they have lowered the Q scores. Think it's now 35 for junior/senior elite, 33 for 12/13 yr hopes and 32 for 10/11 yr hopes.

 

[bookworm]

This thread has brought up something I had never thought about before. I can't enter a JO kid in a LEVEL FIVE competition without having her first prove her proficiency at level 4, or go through a petition process to prove her readiness. But a coach can enter a kid in an elite qualifier to compete the elite compulsories and optional routines with no prior verification of any level of skill proficiency?! Yikes!

Bingo! While the JO and elite tracks say that they have different goals, there still should be something that vets a kid entered....kind of like I'm sure kids would "like" to compete at the levels they "think" they are but that isn't allowed in the lower levels but is allowed at the top level?! Insane...

 

[bookworm]

Yep, it seems to still be this way, but as others have pointed out, they have lowered the Q scores. Think it's now 35 for junior/senior elite, 33 for 12/13 yr hopes and 32 for 10/11 yr hopes.

This happened the year my daughter qualified..she got the 36/53 needed but heading into Classics there were about 10 Juniors and 2 Seniors so voila, the "new scores" needed dropped to 35/51 (Jrs) and 35/53 (srs) and the field grew to about 30 girls because I think they wanted a big enough group that people would pay to come and see...

 

[bogwoppit]

This happened the year my daughter qualified..she got the 36/53 needed but heading into Classics there were about 10 Juniors and 2 Seniors so voila, the "new scores" needed dropped to 35/51 (Jrs) and 35/53 (srs) and the field grew to about 30 girls because I think they wanted a big enough group that people would pay to come and see...

Exactly my point. You can get to be an elite of convenience if the numbers do not add up right.