MAG Changes Coming

[Madden3]

OK, thanks, still confused....

Younger DS has the late May birthday and so will be 19 by May 31st of his senior year. Older DS will not turn 19 until August after his senior year. They can still compete if they are 18 (or considered 18 for the season- right? Or do I have that wrong?

 

[skschlag]

My bad..misread..reverse it so...from what I understand...

Your competitive age will be determined as how old you are on May 31st of the season. So if you are competing in January of 2017 and you will be 18 on May 15, you compete as an 18 year old. So if he turns 19 before that may 31st cut off, then he woudl have to petition...since he is still in hgih school, to compete. But maybe @krc can explain it better!

And welcome to CB! Be sure to introduce yourself WE love havign more MAG parents!

 

[Madden3]

Yes I will intro soon I keep forgetting. Thanks so much for the info. I have taken always gym day by day and never really thought very much about what happens in HS or beyond with this sport. The boys absolutely love it and attempts at other sports have, so far, never taken. So, while it is still many years away, assuming he will still be 'doing gym' in HS, it would be quite a blow to not be able to train or compete his senior year when he will be 18 years old for 95% of that year! I don't know of another sport that does this(?) I think that is what makes this May date really different from September- it would appear (and forgive me if I am wrong) to change the age status of many High School boys in a way where they are pushed out of the sport early...That, to me, is much more of a concern than my son competing as an 11 year old when he is only 10.

Lots of kids do not start K until they are late 5 or 6. In fact around here, parents are often encouraged by schools to not put their kids in school at 4 or 5, especially boys. So, being an 18 year old HS senior is not all that unusual where I live. If there is any question about him not being eligible in his senior year I have to wonder about whether it makes sense to keep him in the sport. I wonder if they will simply make a blanket exception for boys who are still in high school?

 

[skschlag]

So, being an 18 year old HS senior is not all that unusual where I live. If there is any question about him not being eligible in his senior year I have to wonder about whether it makes sense to keep him in the sport. I wonder if they will simply make a blanket exception for boys who are still in high school?

From @krc below. I think he would still be able to compete his senior year.

And, if your 19 yo is still in HS, he can petition to stay in the junior program an additional year. This exception has been granted before.

It is a big change. It will be interesting what the feedback will be when they "go public" with it!

 

[krc]

Hi All,

There is currently a petition process in place for "over-age" gymnasts to participate in the JO program.:

From the Mens R&P:

Maximum age for a gymnast to participate in the J.O. Program is 18. Gymnast’s age 19 and
older must participate in the Senior Elite Program unless permission is granted by the Vice
President of the Men’s Program for special circumstance.
​

I'm sure that the new program will have a similar petition process, especially seeing as more athletes will be affected by the revised age determining date. In any event, 19 yo's can still compete, they just have to compete as Elites. Just to be clear, the 18yo junior/senior break is an FIG rule, not just a USAG rule.

KRC

 

[skschlag]

krc- I see what you mean..but I think the concern is that the kiddos will still be 18.....not 19. But will have to compete as 19 yos. kwim?

 

[Madden3]

OK, thanks so much for explaining, yes under the old date my youngest son competed his actual age and with the date change will compete a year older than actual age.

So, we can petition for the son who will (one day possibly) be competing as a 19 year old (although actually will be 18 for pretty much the entire season.) And that is great! I guess what worries me is that petitions can be denied- I assume. But maybe they typically are not? Anyway, as far as how this impacts us personally, with the old date, we never would have had to worry about this, and now we do. So, it's just a concern I did not have before.
Thanks for explaining about the junior/senior 18/19 break being from FIG. But the date change- defining who is and who is not 18 or 19, that is USAG, or no? Also, I assume this date change was done to fix some problem- what was that problem- anyone know?

I am afraid I have no idea what that means - to compete elite. I have no idea what the difference is. I admit I am one of those moms who has had kids in gym for years but remain pretty clueless. It is all just foreign to me. My personal youth sports career consisted of one embarrassing season in the softball outfield praying the ball was never hit my way.

 

[krc]

Hi Madden3, welcome to CB.

Here in the US we have two National Teams; The Junior team (18 and under) made up of specific numbers of L8's, L9's and L10's. The Senior (19+) team is the top 15 men chosen from USA Championships and Winter Cup. The rules are a little complicated, but lets just say the top 15. So if a 19yo were to be allowed to compete in the Junior program, he would not be able to make Junior National team, because he technically is not age-eligible. To make things a little more complicated, the FIG age date is Jan 1. And while the maximum age for a Junior is 18, the minimum for Senior is 16. Yes, a 16 or 17yo can "move-up" to Senior.

All competitions outside of JO are considered Elite. (NCAA is a little different, but essentially the same). Many of the larger JO meets will have an Elite or Open session, allowing the over 18's to compete. Just think of it as an additional age group.

Regarding the petitions, I can only say that this is new territory. I'm sure that consideration will be made for the athletes (like your DS) who are still in HS and will be affected by this change. Either way - JO or Elite, your DS will have opportunities to continue competing as a 19yo.

KRC

 

[Madden3]

Thank you for explaining.

 

[2G1B]

If they were going to change this, why not just go with the FIG age cut off? I mean, the way it is going to, my son (who honestly, would never be on the national team) would be considered 19 the year that he will actually be 18, not turning 19 until AFTER the end of the season (very end of May b-day). Even by FIG he would be 18 that year. So, if my son were still competing by that time (or consider some other kid with his same birthday), He is actually 18; but by USAG rules is 19. So he then has to compete as an elite? But that then puts him in FIG age groups which puts him back to being 18? Am I understanding that correctly.

I really wish that they would have just swapped to doing age like the girls do. I don't understand why for the guys we limit who can go to nationals based on age when we already have so few guys in the sport.

 

[Madden3]

How do the girls do it?

 

[Sasha]

How do the girls do it?

Around here, they put all the girls' birthdays in order from youngest to oldest, then divide them in approximately equal groups of around 12-20 girls for age-based awards (up to Meet Director to determine size of grouping for the age awards). For example, if there are 60 girls in a session competing Level 4, the Meet Director might divide them into 4 groups of 15 girls each (youngest to oldest). The youngest 15 will compete against each other for awards. The youngest group might have girls from age 6 to 9, but will just be called "Youngest" or "Child A" or something like that. The next oldest group might be all 9 year olds (if that is a popular age for example) and might be called "Child B" or whatever. The "Oldest" group might have girls from age 11-16. It all depends on who is registered.

Otherwise, if the age grouping were more like boys - Age 6/7 in one group, Age 8/9 in another group, if you are a 6 or 7 year old girl (or a 14 year old girl) competing Level 4, depending on the meet, you might have zero competitors, whereas a 9 year old girl might have 52 competitors.

For States, same thing. Age groups are determined in advance, and are roughly equal groups. A girl will compete against the roughly 15-20 girls most close to her age.

I like the girls system much better, personally, though it does amount to tons of awards. There will be about a dozen "1st place AA" given out at States for a level, for example.

 

[Sasha]

How do the girls do it?

And I just realized you might be asking a different question than I answered above. If you were asking about how the girls do it between Elite and JO, I'm not the best person to answer that, so stepping aside for that one

 

[Madden3]

Yes thanks, I was asking how USAG does the dates for girls as far as the date that decides what age they are competing under- not what age group they might be in at an individual meet. Your post was very interesting though! I know nothing about how it works for girls.

For our boy meets, including State and Regionals, at least in the more populated levels (4, 5, and 6) the boys do the same thing- grouping as needed, by age. So...for example, at a level 5 meet, there might be a younger group, medium group, and older. Youngers might be 9 and younger, middle 10 and 11, and olders 12 and over, as an example. It differs meet to meet. I think actual age groupings is decided by the hosting gym and they try to make each group roughly even in numbers. I have never been to a meet with more than 4 levels. Usually it is 2 or 3. So yes the medal ceremony drags on, but not as bad as girls I guess!

As the boys get higher in levels, with fewer and fewer kids competing each level, I assume these age groupings reduce and eventually go away. But I do not know exactly, as older DS is competing level 7 this year, so this will be our first year at optional rather than compulsory level meets.

But the question I have here about the girls is how is one considered, for example, a 10 year old rather than a 9 year old. With the new date cut off for boys, many boys who are actually 9 for the whole season will be considered as competing as 10 year olds. So you can see how this might change the group they are competing in. Of course for some kids, competing in an older group would improve placement, because sometimes the overall scores are lower in a higher age group. So the date change might not always be a negative, at least as far as placement at the lower level meets is concerned.

Where I see it as a big negative is in how it will possibly cause many boys to age out of the sport prematurely, being set adrift with no realistic opportunity to continue in the sport before they even graduate HS. I am not sure going elite is a realistic option for all of these boys.

 

[Sasha]

Yes thanks, I was asking how USAG does the dates for girls as far as the date that decides what age they are competing under- not what age group they might be in at an individual meet.

We're not there yet (my daughter is still Compulsory), but in looking at JO Nationals, the girls scores look to me like they are still under the youngest-to-oldest system. So I think for JO Track, there is no 'age cutoff' that qualifies a girls as "age 12" vs "age 13". Still Junior A, B, C, etc..

I do know that the pre-elite track (TOPS and HOPES tests and competitions) has age cutoffs of Jan 1. So a girl competes the age she is in the calendar year. I think this continues through the rest of her elite career (even the Olympics is calendar year I believe), to determine if an elite is a "junior elite" or "senior elite". I think it is still Jan 1, but someone chime in if that's not correct.

 

[Smiley007]

Sorry I am kind of late to the discussion, but I think USAG will transition to the new age group (if it passes) in a way that will accommodate for those turning 19 by May 31. More info should be coming in the spring according to our regional director. I know they are getting input from the coaches, but I'm not sure if they are tapping into parents (e.g., how will it affect booster clubs...sounds like it could complicate things, etc.). I do know they want to consider the potential unintended consequences, so if you feel that you have a perspective that they should consider, I suggest emailing your input to your regional director and seeing if it is something that could be forwarded on to the Jr. Olympic Programming Committee (JOPC). (But don't expect a reply from the JOPC because as much as they probably wish they could reply, I think they are too busy.) Either way we will have to embrace the change that is coming and make the most of it. Not sure how easy it will be to find a win-win-win-win situation for all parties involved (USAG-coaches-parents-gymnasts). If you have some ideas that could work, I would love to hear them!

 

[Madden3]

Thank you! I was wondering how to make a formal comment to USAG rather than kvetching on the net. So I will try to figure out how to reach regional director. Your suggestion to make the best of any circumstance is a good one of course.

I am still not understanding what is the positive outcome the date change is supposed to achieve, so any insight into that would be very helpful.

 

[2G1B]

Thank you! I was wondering how to make a formal comment to USAG rather than kvetching on the net. So I will try to figure out how to reach regional director. Your suggestion to make the best of any circumstance is a good one of course.

I am still not understanding what is the positive outcome the date change is supposed to achieve, so any insight into that would be very helpful.

I agree with you, I really don't see the positive that is supposed to come from this one. If anything, there should be an across the board standard and they shouldn't have kids competing as a year older than they are for the *entire* season, which is what this does. It also will make it where some kids can't go to nationals because of this "age" when in actuality, by nationals, they will still be under the cut off.

As far as I'm aware, girls don't have the age cut off for nationals, if you make it, you go. No worries about your age (as long as you are 18 or under). Maybe I'm wrong on that, I just have never heard of parents worrying in that way about age for girls and I have seen older girls make it to nationals...

But you are right, complaining about it in a forum isn't going to do anything.

 

[krc]

Hi Everyone,

Ok, a couple of things. First, the May 31st age date is a done deal. It has been approved by the JOPC. The boys will be labeled as the age they will be at the end of the season. For the most part this will not change the group of kids that your boys have been competing against. It is merely the label that is being changed. The main reason for the switch is to bring into alignment the (majority of the) athletes actual and assigned age. Under the current system, most kids are competing down one year from their actual age. The new age determination date change will fix this problem. The 13yo champion at Regionals and Nationals will actually be 13. Under the current system he is usually 14.

The kids with May birthdays will be be in the same position as kids with August birthdays currently. (It doesn't matter which date is picked - somebody will be 11 months out.) At the top end - the 19yo gymnast will be taken care of through a petition process as they are now (probably simplified due to greater numbers). At the younger ages the gymnasts will see few changes. An August birthday will go from being the youngest in the group to being in the mid-upper range. A May birthday will now be the youngest in the cohort instead of one of the older kids. The August and May kids will see the most change, approx 1/2 of their current cohort will switch up or down. For all of the others, most of their current cohort will remain the same. For the majority of kids, the kids they are competing against now will remain mostly the same.

The girls determine age in a similar way: from the girls R&P:
The gymnast's age for the competitive season is determined by the date of the final day of competition at the culminating championship meet for that level.

In other words, you are what your age is at nationals. The men are just instituting the same policy.
Smiley007 put it best:

...we will have to embrace the change that is coming and make the most of it.

Bottom line - this is really not that big a deal for 90% of the gymnast out there. Yes, the May birthdays will be at a disadvantage, in exactly the same way that August birthdays are now, or that Dec birthdays would be if Jan 1 was the date. However, aligning the competitive and actual ages will benefit the entire JO/JE system in the long term.

Respectfully submitted

KRC

 

[profmom]

With a child on each side of the gender line, I'll be curious to see whether the Great Age Change causes as much turmoil, anxiety, and general freaking out as the Great Re-Leveling Shift did for the girls when it was implemented in 2013. (For those who did not live through that tumultuous epoch with a girl or weren't on Chalk Bucket, the women's JO committee added in a new optional level, which dropped all of the compulsory levels a number. If someone's DD was competing L5, say, prior to the shift and "repeated" a year, she was competing L4 the next year. Alternatively, she moved up to "new L5." Fun times around the gym.)

As I've said before, I'm glad I know this is coming and I've got all my freaking out all done. I'm guessing DS's coach will try to get my October boy to L9 next year. If so, he will get there, like most of the guys his age and at about his skill level, on time but a few skills short, some skills weak, and lots more As in his routines than would have been the case if he'd had an additional year at 8. I predict many, many ugly pommel routines from first-year L9s next year, and many rings and hi bar routines that don't get full group credit. I don't even want to think about what judges will see from first-year L10s, though maybe more coaches will figure that an extra year of 9 isn't a bad thing even if they're not eligible for nationals.