WAG Home conditioning to help with vault

[mobeans]

Hi all!

My 7-year-old DD is finishing up her L2 season and moving to L3 in a few weeks. She initially started off the L2 season with a mediocre vault--getting in the mid-8s at meets. She ended the season with a 9.3 at States (and state champ in vault-something we never thought we'd see)! Now that they are moving on to L3 vault she is getting frustrated again, not flying as much as her coaches would like. She is strong on all the other events and I hate the vault can bring down her AA. While we are several months from meet season, we were hoping to get much improvement by then. She has a pretty good run but doesn't "fly" as much as her coaches want her to once she hits the springboard. She is light at about 46 lbs however there are a couple other skinny ones who can fly and have great vaults. I'd ask her coaches about a private but not sure a private can help much--it seems it is more strength...? Would short sprints help? Leg conditioning?

 

[rbearclaw]

I would love to see the responses to this too, as my DD is in a similar situation, too! My daughter is 6 and 39 pounds, and her coach is keeping her back in Level 3 because she can barely make it over the vault for Level 4. Her vault score also weighs down her AA with high 8s, but her coach said that is so common for young, lightweight girls, and to giver her time to grow.

 

[Haismom]

Not sure if this helps but my daughter xcel bronze, does handstand hops to stretch her vault and she runs, usually she runs 4-5 laps around our neighborhood lake, around a mile a day... And she has improved her vault that she is not just doing handstand flat back, she can hit. Handstand on vault table, working hard...

 

[iwannacoach]

Ride a bike, play tag, and jumping onto something about about knee high and progress to waist high. The jumping should be done from both a standing position and from a one or three step run that ends with a hurdle and a punch.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

nothing can progress the issue. when the kids become more proficient and strong in tumbling you will see it translate to vault. takes time.

 

[profmom]

Despite having a GREAT vault coach, DD's vault scores started in the 7s and very gradually progressed into the mid-8s over the course of four years of the FHS. (She is small and slightly built -- maybe 65 lbs. after a lot of cake and ice cream at nearly 13 years old.) The one universal truth I understood about gymnastics was that she stunk at vault. Then in her fifth year, about two months before the end of last season, something clicked and she started really vaulting. At her last meet this year and presumably her last meet at L7, she won her first event gold medal ever . . . on vault. I nearly fainted.

(It now occurs to me that the same thing happened with DS this season -- he was improving but still very much middle of the pack or lower, and then he did really well in his last three meets. For my two, who are built in really similar ways, crossing that 60ish lb. threshold seemed to help some, but really it was more like something just happened one day and all of a sudden, they didn't stink at vault anymore.)

 

[BlairBob]

At home, not much.

The Russians are a big fan of weighted squat jumps.

It sounds like she may just need to do more plyo drills at the gym.

Go to a track and work 20m sprints and one legged bounding.

At home I can't think of doing much besides barbell squats, single leg squats, barbell squat jumps.

But this ideally would be done by somebody who could facilitate it properly and I wouldn't leave that up to a parent.

1-2 sessions a week of personal training with the emphasis on those is an idea.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

actually, vaulting is a power event. weight lifting should not be done. if you wanted to spend the money with a licensed PT/trainer, there are power specific exercises that can be done to improve to body's ability to generate power for vault. like sprinting while holding a tire around your waist or attaching surgical tubing to the body when that tubing is fixed and attached to something behind and the athlete sprints down the runway until the tubing tightens and then the athlete keeps the tension in the tubing and then runs backwards to the beginning. most things like this can be done in their gyms and many do it.

with that said, and as i have posted before, the boards are made of fiberglas/wood and have steel springs. the board regulations are that the front of the boards can be no more than 9 inches tall. therefore, the springs we put in (that you see us do at meets) are compressed down when we put them in place. front springs measure about 10-11 inches depending on the which manufactured board is used. so we must compress them 1-2 inches just to put them in. this makes those front springs very tight.

body type does not really matter in the vaulting equation, but muscle twitch does. the slower twitched you are, the more difficult it will be to generate power from the body to the board.

then when you couple that twitch with body weight, the conundrum with the board becomes exacerbated. you can take the fastest twitch body...and if that body weighs under 70 lbs, it will still be most difficult to get that board to do what it is supposed to do. and if you can't get the board to do what it is intended to do then you certainly will not be able to get the body to do what it could potentially do.

as i posted above, tumbling will be the metric for vaulting. seldom will you find an athlete performing a vigorous and simple front handspring that can't already perform a vigorous and powerful round off>flip flop>back tuck. as tumbling develops is when you will see vaulting progress.

as several have always posted on CB, gymnastics is a marathon...not a sprint. vaulting is just one of those events that will take a long time to become proficient at.

 

[emorymom]

She's seven so I would not personally do anything. If her coaches would hold her back for low vault and great everything else, that would seem very suspicious. It will work itself out.

 

[munchkin3]

I hate vault. My daughter hates it, which is why I hate it too.
She is 9 1/2 and weighs 52 lbs.

I will like it sometime later i am sure.

 

[ACoach78]

actually, vaulting is a power event. weight lifting should not be done. if you wanted to spend the money with a licensed PT/trainer, there are power specific exercises that can be done to improve to body's ability to generate power for vault.

What is the definition of power?

Work/Time

Work = Force x Displacement

Force x (Displacement/Time) = Force x Velocity

What does "Force" constitute when talking about the human body and human movement? Strength.

So, by the very definition of power, you absolutely can increase strength and you quite possibly can see a subsequent increase in power. In fact, with younger athletes, I'd contend that this is the best way to see an improvement in power - get the kid(s) stronger!

 

[SuperGirlmlm]

I'm sure it will come, I wasn't good at vault until my tumbling suddenly sky-rocketed (thats also around where we started conditioning more seriously).

 

[BlairBob]

actually, vaulting is a power event. weight lifting should not be done.

So tell me why sprinters use it in their training to some degree? Oh wait, they run a helluva lot faster than any gymnasts ever do.

http://www.dragondoor.com/articles/the-holy-grail-in-speed-training/ Old, but basically we are trying to increase the pressure applied to the ground on every foot strike.

Tell me why Rybacki doesn't use weight training to increase the strength of his athletes? Oh wait, he does.

Tell me what Byers Sac/ElkGrove, Airborne, and UCBerkeley do. BW lunges right?

Technically sprinting is the sport that actually has the highest power performance. Weightlifting as in OlympicWeightlifting is up there which is why it used in all kinds of athletic programs (though Powerlifting really wants a share of this to legitimize themselves).

To note, the males of the Chinese gymnastics squad are required to Back Squat 2xBW. It ain't just for ****s and giggles.


You can do all the "power" development exercises you want but without a strength base, you are basically playing around. You're just working on expressing what power they are already capable of.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

What is the definition of power?

Work/Time

Work = Force x Displacement

Force x (Displacement/Time) = Force x Velocity

What does "Force" constitute when talking about the human body and human movement? Strength.

So, by the very definition of power, you absolutely can increase strength and you quite possibly can see a subsequent increase in power. In fact, with younger athletes, I'd contend that this is the best way to see an improvement in power - get the kid(s) stronger!

i understand your point, but weightlifting increases muscle density. muscle density equals more weight. gymnasts can't have this. they must derive power from other exercises. i am aware of weightlifting that increases power (Sharansky) but we just can't have pre-pub kids doing power lifts, etc;. just much to dangerous. (Bompa, Sands, George)

some of these concepts can't be debated. and the limited weightlifting they do in college is for injury prevention/rehab. here's a pretty good one as i'm a bit tired tonight to type.

http://www.pcgymnastics.com/Conditioning.html

http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/gymnastics-training.html

 

[Deleted member D3987]

So tell me why sprinters use it in their training to some degree? Oh wait, they run a helluva lot faster than any gymnasts ever do.

http://www.dragondoor.com/articles/the-holy-grail-in-speed-training/ Old, but basically we are trying to increase the pressure applied to the ground on every foot strike.

Tell me why Rybacki doesn't use weight training to increase the strength of his athletes? Oh wait, he does.

Tell me what Byers Sac/ElkGrove, Airborne, and UCBerkeley do. BW lunges right?

Technically sprinting is the sport that actually has the highest power performance. Weightlifting as in OlympicWeightlifting is up there which is why it used in all kinds of athletic programs (though Powerlifting really wants a share of this to legitimize themselves).

To note, the males of the Chinese gymnastics squad are required to Back Squat 2xBW. It ain't just for ****s and giggles.


You can do all the "power" development exercises you want but without a strength base, you are basically playing around. You're just working on expressing what power they are already capable of.

Steve DOES NOT weight train his kids along with Beth and his son. and Steve WAS a track athlete in college.

you misunderstand exactly what/how the male chinese gymnasts do. you are mischaracterizing.

plyo and other execises i mentioned above are what are done. and we use weight vests quite a bit.

Simone Biles has never lifted a weight in her life. and then there is Maroney. same thing. but i do know some of the things that Artur had her do, upper and lower, to make her so efficiently explosive.

folks, i've trained elite gymnasts. boys and girls. and i've been around those who have done the same for a LONG time. there is no weightlifting.

there is so much misunderstanding and disinformation out there on a lot of this stuff so it's hard for me to even have a cogent response. so, i'm going to end any further response in this because i don't want other younger coaches or parents running to the next bell and whistle that can hurt pre-pub athletes.

and who knows, maybe Rick McCharles will jump in. he's as traveled as i am. or now that Dr. Sands has moved back to Utah and may return to coaching, maybe he'll find this site and jump in. i just don't know where someone has the temerity to opine on this kind of stuff when they have never trained an elite gymnast.

moreover, i have read the link that you posted before. my only comment is that you have to understand what you're reading and especially in this case when you're applying what you think you understand to gymnastics. you missed this paragraph:

"In the world of speed training for sprints, basketball, baseball, football, soccer, and any other sport that requires sudden bursts of forward speed, this changes EVERYTHING."

gymnastics doesn't require or utilize "sudden bursts of forward speed". gymnastics is more complex and complicated in its human movement. this article comes from sprinting. you have to understand what it is THEY are trying to accomplish to understand the article.

my best example is vaulting. i'm not going to take the time to explain tumbling. but if a vaulter began their run such that the sprinter does, and then increased their speed at about the 25 foot mark where round off's and hurdles reside, they would be 'over running'. this concept is best understood as 'uncoordination' or discoordination'. the body comes out of coordinated rhythm/cadence and bad things happen. like tripping or when you see a gymnast go down on a hurdle for a round off entry.

no matter the vault, the run begins slowly and gradually increases and then speeds up approx the last 3 steps before hurdle for conventional or round off entries. one simply needs to watch vaults on Youtube. yesteryear and/or today.

the closest track events to gymnastics is the triple jump, pole vaulting and high jump. the gradual increase in speed/approach and then the last 2 or 3 steps...just like vaulting.

if a sprinter did what they did down the vault runway, they would pile drive their heads in to the table. they would never be able to hurdle for either conventional or round off approaches.


i hope to the rest of you that doesn't sound arrogant. just some nights i can't listen to this stuff.

eta: i forgot a small thing...in all the years we've been at the ranch (this includes Steve) there has NEVER been discussion about weightlifting to make better athletes. other stuff, yes.

 

[ACoach78]

i understand your point, but weightlifting increases muscle density. muscle density equals more weight. gymnasts can't have this. they must derive power from other exercises. i am aware of weightlifting that increases power (Sharansky) but we just can't have pre-pub kids doing power lifts, etc;. just much to dangerous. (Bompa, Sands, George)

some of these concepts can't be debated. and the limited weightlifting they do in college is for injury prevention/rehab. here's a pretty good one as i'm a bit tired tonight to type.

http://www.pcgymnastics.com/Conditioning.html

http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/gymnastics-training.html

When you are speaking of muscle density, I am assuming that you are speaking of muscle hypertrophy? In terms of male gymnasts, I'd say that this might of a little concern depending on the volume of training. But, with the vast majority of females this would be of little concern because females do not have the hormone levels unless they are paying a visit to the local biochemist. Furthermore, if you're training specifically for power and controlling the volume and load, it should not be an issue for the majority of male gymnasts, either.

Secondly, why can't you have pre-pubescent kids doing olympic and/or power lifts? Who told you that? A more correct way to put it is that you have to be conservative with how you load a pre-pubescent athlete. But, they most definitely can learn the technique of the lifts and can make gains from the neuromuscular aspects alone. Keep in mind that maximal loading does not equate to power development. Power development is really more dependent on the velocity of the movement. Even for elite-level Olympic weightlifters, they will produce more mechanical power on a submaximal lift. I believe that peak power usually occurs around 85-90% of their max on average. In a standard textbook, the loading parameters for power development is usually something like 70-80% of 1 RM. It depends on the text that you're referencing.

Lastly, it really makes little difference if you've coached an elite gymnast or not. If Simone Biles walks in my door and possesses that level of talent, is it really that difficult to coach her? She already has natural gifts and is essentially a genetic freak. Most elite athletes are. So, professing your expertise because you have coached elite athletes is of little relevance when what we are arguing is science-based. You can coach all of the elite gymnasts in the world and you still can't argue with what exists in the research as well as what other practitioners are doing in other domains without any issues.

And, what they do at the ranch? Well, I could give a flying sh**. They are well behind the times and live within their little box only. They need to get outside of it and analyze what some of the world leaders in sport performance and training are doing and see how these things could be implemented into gymnastics. Then, we'd probably have less injuries and early retirements.

And, by the way, Bill Sands is currently at Middle Tennessee State with Dr. Mike Stone, the last I checked. Dr. Stone is pretty prominent in Strength & Conditioning research and I'd be shocked if Bill already departed back for Utah because he and the Stones have collaborated on quite a bit of research together. I would guess that is what attracted him to the position at MTSU. He has not been there much over a couple of years, I don't believe.

I do respect Dr. Sands work and especially his expertise in the area of recovery. That being said, he actually has expressed that he feels that gymnasts should implement some weight training into their gymnastics training. I believe that there is an article out there from many years ago titled "Should Female Gymnast Lift Weights?" I am sure you could find it on the web somewhere.

As for how I have the "temerity to opine on this kind of stuff when they have never trained an elite gymnast," is because I have this piece of paper framed lying in a box that says "Masters Degree" and it's in the area of Kinesiology. In addition, I have another transcript that indicates that I have an additional 30 graduate hours with the majority of those hours in the area of clinical biomechanics. Then, I have this certification called "Certified Strength & Conditioning Specialist" (CSCS). Next, I have a certification called "Certified Personal Trainer" (NSCA-CPT). After that, I have a certification called "USA Weightlifting - Level 1 Sport Performance" (USAW-L1SP). Following that, I have a certification called "IYCA Speed & Agility Specialist." Then, I have a certification called "Functional Movement Screen - Level 1." And, let's not forget my regular subscriptions to the training sites "BodyByBoyleOnline.com," "EliteTrainingMentorship.com" and "StrengthCoach.com" where I get to learn from some of the best in the strength & conditioning industry. Currently, I'm working on the Precision Nutrition certification.

Of course, for anyone who has certifications, we both know that some of these certs are just pieces of paper. The ones that I have are very well-respected and in some cases the "gold-standard," but they really mean very little. That said, it does provide some level of credibility. I have gained so much more by self-study and going to conferences, reading the literature, and asking a lot of questions to people who are way smarter than me when it comes to training and the human body.

So, I toss that out there not to toot my own horn, but I've never been a fan of people running their virtual "mouth" when they are insulting others who are expressing a different opinion(s). And, based on the inability to formulate proper sentence structure and erroneous information, I am guessing that they lack the educational pedigree as well.

Finally, what BlairBob has commented in regards to weight training/strength/power development is correct despite the criticism by the next person who posted.

(However, I do think the snatch actually measures as the highest actual mechanical power output even over sprinting. That is why Olympic lifting and the variations are so heavily regarded in power sports/events like sprinting, discus, shot put, hammer throw, etc.)

 

[Becauseisaid]

Wow. Y'all are cute. However, I think you've forgotten the original question involves a 7 year old L3. Let's not make it more complicated that it already is. We're making cookies here, guys, not baked Alaska.

My DD was L3 this past season. Her vault went from mid-8s to a 9.7 at the state meet. Yeah, we were all shocked. I've noticed 3 things seem to determine that score. The run speeding up rather than slowing down, a hard heel drive to get them up and over in a straight body position, and a strong block so they fly off the table. Most of the kids I saw had 1 and 2, but blocking was a dying quail and the kids just sort of flopped over onto the mats. Is this the part that your DD is having issues with?

Strength helps with all these issues. The more a kid does to get stronger, the better it will translate. It's summer so I agree with IWC. Ride a bike, play in the yard, go swimming, BE A KID! All of that will make her stronger. I don't think you need to do anything special. Just encourage your DD to be active this summer. Let the training stay in the gym.

 

[profmom]

And you can do all the sophisticated strength training in the world along with drilling endlessly on form, but it just takes some kids a long time to learn how to run at close to full speed toward a stationary object. I'm convinced that what made my DD turn the corner on the front handspring was her mostly unconscious decision that she was ready to work toward moving up to L8 -- which in her gym means Yurchenkos. If you're gonna flip a Yurchenko, you can't chase butterflies down the vault track, especially if you aren't yet 65 lbs. yet. For her, the more aggressive run and the willingness to commit fully to the vault at the end, I think, solved all of her problems.

(For DS, I think it might have been his coach yelling at him every time he vaulted, "run! run!! RUN!!! why won't you RUUUUUUN?!!? GO HARD!!!!!")

 

[BlairBob]

Dunno, during one of Rybacki's clinics, he went over the weight training he used for his gymnastics in a clinic at congress. It was used more in a circuit fashion. I taped the clinic and the video should be in the hands of Yoshi Nakayama.

you misunderstand exactly what/how the male chinese gymnasts do. you are mischaracterizing.

No, I am not. This is one of things I was told by Coach Sommer with the coaches he knows on the International level.

Dunno, I am quite aware of how the runs of vault and sprint go on. I am talking the numbers that are out there for peak speed of gymnasts, to pole vaulters, to sprinters. Now bare in mind, sprinters are gonna be hitting higher numbers because they were born and trained for it compared to gymnasts.

gymnastics doesn't require or utilize "sudden bursts of forward speed".

How about a tumbling pass? Let's jog. Yep, jogging is good.

You don't need to use weight training. Many elites may never need it because they are are naturally explosive. These are the kids we are not concerned with being fast or strong enough. But you give me a weaker kid and you can do all the plyometrics and sprinting all day long for 6 months and you'll still have a weak kid who has maximized what little power potential they are capable.

Want a quick fix? Get a barbell.

Ride a bike, play in the yard, go swimming, BE A KID!

BE A KID! Not elite anything.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

When you are speaking of muscle density, I am assuming that you are speaking of muscle hypertrophy? In terms of male gymnasts, I'd say that this might of a little concern depending on the volume of training. But, with the vast majority of females this would be of little concern because females do not have the hormone levels unless they are paying a visit to the local biochemist. Furthermore, if you're training specifically for power and controlling the volume and load, it should not be an issue for the majority of male gymnasts, either.

Secondly, why can't you have pre-pubescent kids doing olympic and/or power lifts? Who told you that? A more correct way to put it is that you have to be conservative with how you load a pre-pubescent athlete. But, they most definitely can learn the technique of the lifts and can make gains from the neuromuscular aspects alone. Keep in mind that maximal loading does not equate to power development. Power development is really more dependent on the velocity of the movement. Even for elite-level Olympic weightlifters, they will produce more mechanical power on a submaximal lift. I believe that peak power usually occurs around 85-90% of their max on average. In a standard textbook, the loading parameters for power development is usually something like 70-80% of 1 RM. It depends on the text that you're referencing.

Lastly, it really makes little difference if you've coached an elite gymnast or not. If Simone Biles walks in my door and possesses that level of talent, is it really that difficult to coach her? She already has natural gifts and is essentially a genetic freak. Most elite athletes are. So, professing your expertise because you have coached elite athletes is of little relevance when what we are arguing is science-based. You can coach all of the elite gymnasts in the world and you still can't argue with what exists in the research as well as what other practitioners are doing in other domains without any issues.

And, what they do at the ranch? Well, I could give a flying sh**. They are well behind the times and live within their little box only. They need to get outside of it and analyze what some of the world leaders in sport performance and training are doing and see how these things could be implemented into gymnastics. Then, we'd probably have less injuries and early retirements.

And, by the way, Bill Sands is currently at Middle Tennessee State with Dr. Mike Stone, the last I checked. Dr. Stone is pretty prominent in Strength & Conditioning research and I'd be shocked if Bill already departed back for Utah because he and the Stones have collaborated on quite a bit of research together. I would guess that is what attracted him to the position at MTSU. He has not been there much over a couple of years, I don't believe.

I do respect Dr. Sands work and especially his expertise in the area of recovery. That being said, he actually has expressed that he feels that gymnasts should implement some weight training into their gymnastics training. I believe that there is an article out there from many years ago titled "Should Female Gymnast Lift Weights?" I am sure you could find it on the web somewhere.

As for how I have the "temerity to opine on this kind of stuff when they have never trained an elite gymnast," is because I have this piece of paper framed lying in a box that says "Masters Degree" and it's in the area of Kinesiology. In addition, I have another transcript that indicates that I have an additional 30 graduate hours with the majority of those hours in the area of clinical biomechanics. Then, I have this certification called "Certified Strength & Conditioning Specialist" (CSCS). Next, I have a certification called "Certified Personal Trainer" (NSCA-CPT). After that, I have a certification called "USA Weightlifting - Level 1 Sport Performance" (USAW-L1SP). Following that, I have a certification called "IYCA Speed & Agility Specialist." Then, I have a certification called "Functional Movement Screen - Level 1." And, let's not forget my regular subscriptions to the training sites "BodyByBoyleOnline.com," "EliteTrainingMentorship.com" and "StrengthCoach.com" where I get to learn from some of the best in the strength & conditioning industry. Currently, I'm working on the Precision Nutrition certification.

Of course, for anyone who has certifications, we both know that some of these certs are just pieces of paper. The ones that I have are very well-respected and in some cases the "gold-standard," but they really mean very little. That said, it does provide some level of credibility. I have gained so much more by self-study and going to conferences, reading the literature, and asking a lot of questions to people who are way smarter than me when it comes to training and the human body.

So, I toss that out there not to toot my own horn, but I've never been a fan of people running their virtual "mouth" when they are insulting others who are expressing a different opinion(s). And, based on the inability to formulate proper sentence structure and erroneous information, I am guessing that they lack the educational pedigree as well.

Finally, what BlairBob has commented in regards to weight training/strength/power development is correct despite the criticism by the next person who posted.

(However, I do think the snatch actually measures as the highest actual mechanical power output even over sprinting. That is why Olympic lifting and the variations are so heavily regarded in power sports/events like sprinting, discus, shot put, hammer throw, etc.)

there are so many things...

Bill is back in Utah. i believe that you will hear of his return to coaching soon enough.

and i think we've done pretty good at the ranch for the last 20 years. we keep winning. and nobody is weightlifting. some aspects of using weights within the exercises, yes. weightlifting, no.

and coach78, are you an actual gymnastics coach? and i do respect those sheepskins that you have and that we both might share.

Simone? yes, freak of nature. but you still have to know how to coach those kinds of kids also.

i'm really confused by your 1st paragraph. females produce hormones much sooner than males. yet, both sexes derive their strength and power from volume training at an early age. although the boys will be a bit different younger.

and i don't know how old you are or your history in the sport. suffice, go back to the 70's and 80's. eastern bloc.

why were their sports scientists using very radical extremes to improve power, speed, sustained stamina and strength in gymnasts and swimmers by using 'drugs' to improve performance?

because they couldn't get it from weightlifting or powerlifting.

and who has told us NOT to use certain aspects of weightlifting/powerlifting on pre-pub kids? the medical community and Larry Nasser.

i'm not a medical doctor for certain. but having trained elite gymnasts gives you a certain sport specific understanding and knowledge that you can't get from the 'books' so to speak. and i won't ever argue what to do or not with an MD.

so then, i'm a big mouth undereducated imbecile. we'll leave it at that.