WAG how do you measure fast twitch vs slow twitch and why is fast better in gymnastics?

[Deleted member D3987]

that's right. if your daughter will only be 4' 10", it would be humorous child abuse to put her in basketball or volleyball. as i've stated before as it relates to whether "can gymnastics stunt your growth", the answer is no. it's anthropology. parents with predictable small children will migrate towards "small people" sports/activities. it's really that plain and simple.

efe: if your son or daughter were 6' tall in the 6th grade, why on earth would you put them in gymnastics? i guess maybe for torture for not cleaning their rooms or not doing homework or talking back or...

 

[bookworm]

I know I'm late to the party here but in all my years around this sport, I have never heard the fast vs slow twitch discussion...and did I need to? I feel totally out of the loop...

 

[mimi]

^^^^^^^totally agree. Well said!

 

[mimi]

Meant to point to Dunno's comment. Darn smartphone!

 

[gardenia01]

Ha! Yes, I get the irony. However, as a former athlete of sports involving round balls who trained hard enough to run a 5:25 mile (a long time ago) and a sub-4 hour marathon, I strongly believe that even a gymnast or former gymnast (providing they are willing to put in the work and build up their miles on the pavement) could become a decent, if maybe not a "great" or "elite" distance runner. But not with the training they get in the gym--they would need to put in the miles under their shoes. Don't under estimate training. More girls could become decent competitive gymnasts (if maybe not great or elite) if they had access to the training and conditioning required to realize their potential. And if their parents had the money. And if they didn't get screened out of the system at some gyms based on what they looked like at age 4 or 5. It's just much tougher in gymnastics to get the kind of coaching, conditioning and training hours you need to realize your potential versus some other sports, where a broader spectrum of kids get the chance, and some rise to the top based on what they accomplish versus being told they shouldn't bother trying..... Just sayin. Picking only certain body "types" at an itty bitty age to to get conditioning, coaching, repetition and training which are integral to success in this sport is the very definition of a self-fulfulling prophesy. It is a prediction that causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to the dynamics of belief and behaviour. You believe something that may or may not be true, and then take certain actions to ensure it is true. Really a ridiculously complicated way for me to basically say that gymnastics has historically been no where near the middle of the bell curve when it comes to accessilibity. Only a tiny portion of the potentially good or even great gymnasts ever get the opportunity to even try competing in the sport.

I totally agree about the distance running. Although I doubt Gabby would ever be an elite distance runner, she could finish a marathon if she put in the miles. And by the way, small people make great runners. Most elite distance runners are quite short and extremely light.

 

[monkeysmom]

I'm not really talking about 4'10" or 6" girls. I'm talking about kids nearer to the middle of the other 99% of the population... And perhaps Gabby would not ever be an elite distance runner, but I'm not so sure based on just this fast twitch slow twitch thing. She generally has an elite distance runner body type. If she had the desire and determination and could put the miles under her feet (gymnastics takes a toll on the joints as does running).....you never know. She certainly has the mental strength and pain tolerance required. And she could probably kick in the last 100 yards better than many (with a lot of training of course)..... No way of knowing if she has the 02 uptake thing since she has never trained distance running.

 

[wallinbl]

There is no scientific evidence to say that muscle types (fast vs slow) can be changed to another type via training. The differences between muscle types is well accepted by science.

 

[monkeysmom]

Everyone has both types. Fast twitch become bigger (more mass) and stronger if you focus your training there. Slow twitch become more aerobic if you focus your training there. Some folks say you can temporarily "recruit" some, sort of hybrid with some types of training. I myself went from not being able to run a half mile comfortably to being able to run anything under 15 miles comfortably around an 8 minute pace. It took a long time. And getting the pace down took sprint and interval training on a track twice a week. Elite gymnasts, like us other mere mortals have both types of muscles, though they do probably have more fast twitch. All their lives they have intensely trained their fast twich. Who is to say what would happen if retired from gymnastics and slowly started building miles? (other than it could be rough on the joints since gymastics was already rough on the joints) Some elite gymnasts may have many potential gifts.... More likely Gabby Douglas than a linebacker to finish in the top 20% of a half marathon one day..... If she wanted to and was able to put in the miles...

 

[Deleted member D3987]

There is no scientific evidence to say that muscle types (fast vs slow) can be changed to another type via training. The differences between muscle types is well accepted by science.

this ^^^is factual truth.

 

[BlairBob]

I think long distance is quite similar to the shorter distances

I cannot say this to the point I want to but NO. The energy systems are way different for something like a 100 compared to even a 400 which taps into the oxidative energy system. I will say that I have long distance runners run 400s in sub 1 minute but they never could approach the 400 specialists who were sub 50s.

Especially having ran everything from the 100m to 2mile/3000m. I wasn't great but I was decent for a hobbit. I could run a high 11s 100 yard (not meters hahah), low 50's 400 and a mile in just over 5 minutes. My 2mi best were above 11 minutes. I never timed anything longer but I have run 15-20+ miles for my short XC training in summer (before quitting. ankle sprains and dog attacks got old fast).

Apparently my post on this got deleted or didn't send. I can't remember.

Supposedly the Chinese are doing some sort of blood testing for their athletes for muscle fibers.

To reiterate, you basically have the type I slow twitch muscle fibers. You also have type IIa and type IIb. Type IIa can switch from type IIa to type I depending on needs. They aren't quite as fast as type IIb but they are nearly equal to them. They depend more on the glycolytic energy system than phosphagen/ATP. Some research has shown type IIb can or will change to type IIa. So, basically it's all dizzying.

You can also look into "Born to Run" which espouses that humans are basically built to run and one of the reasons we survived and dominated the food chain. Look into persistence hunting which we, dogs, and wolverines are known for. Basically running down other animals, especially those quick twitch freaks that gas out over time.

And as awesome as our greatest human athletes are in speed and jumping prowess, they still rank poorly in the animal kingdown. It seems that is true even for our most strongest and powerful athletes, even when roided up.

As to training for the longer distance runs, a lot of 100 and 200 runners will stay away from the 400. It is a horrible race quite possibly only equaled by the 800 whereas running the mile and longer or 200s and shorter are never really that hard. Take a look at which races make the most people throw up. Technically the 300 should be at the tail end of the glycolytic energy system but I never ran hurdles because I was a hobbit. 300 sprints still weren't as bad as the 400s.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

lol! hobbit...you cracked me up...i spit coffee.

 

[BlairBob]

Dunno, there was an article earlier this year on Janine and Jessica Mortimer, twins in the UK where one of them was a swimmer the other a gymnast and they varied 8 inches in height.

There seems to be some interesting possible medical data showing why gymnasts are smaller all revolving around the development of sex hormones. I've had an idea that it basically revolved around how the amount of energy being used and energy being consumed but this explains it better. Part of this started with having to deal with one of my little guys who had acid reflux, was on the small side, and was doing multiple sports though his parents were of normal to above average size ( his mom and aunt are tall and dad is 5'10" or so ).

Decreasing gonadotropin (GnRH) release. This results in a decrease in luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), which in turn downregulates production of normal sex steroids, ultimately causing the noticeable delay in puberty, or once puberty is reached, a decrease in its usual effects.[1]
Lowered levels of insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1), resulting in less growth of the long bones and soft tissues before the end of puberty. Typically the effect is more noticeable in skeletal structure, as muscle will hypertrophy given enough exercise stimulus and proper nutrition.

So that over a prolonged period of time equals a lack of growth. Unfortunately, I can't use this argument because I have always had quite an appetite and was not super lean as a child bordering on slightly chubby at times. Nor did I train for long hours. And both my parents are short with short parents of their own (but some siblings that were of average to above average height [near 6']).

 

[Faith]

My sister trained gymnastics all her life, from age 5. Never got past level 4 (although she did acro). All those years and at 18 her most difficult skill was a bhs- and a bhs with bent arms and no way could she bt, or even add a second bhs, just no power. She struggled with an aerial cartwheel.

But with no sport specific training, she was the fastest 1500m runner in her age at school, and win many cross country events. She can still pitch up at a 10k run and do it in about 50m, again with no training, at nearly 40 years old.

no way could I do that. I got to what would be level 8 ish at 11 years, but we had no sprung floors or tumble tracks in them days, and I just didn't have the jump for double backs etc.

 

[BlairBob]

My friends call me a hobbit. I'm 5'1" (maybe/barely) and I have hair on the tops of my feet. Not much but some. They called my dad the same thing as we are both barefoot people though he has nearly 5" + on me.

 

[monkeysmom]

What do you call a tall person with hair on their toes? But I shave my toes....so no one knows but me. I find the height thing interesting too. I am on the taller side but my daughter has never managed to break the 50th percentile for height or weight. I think she is sort of a half and half slow and fast twitch. Though she stunk in her mile run in gym class but beat all the boys in pushups.... so who knows. She does seem to be faster and a better jumper these days that she spends more time in the gym. In the mornings before school all cylinders are firing (or not firing) on ssllloooow twitch...... Her paternal grandparents are really short, though her dad is around 5'11" so I really don't know why she is on the shorter side. A couple of my siblings have really tall kids, and one of my brothers and and I have shorter kids. Who knows... The average of the parents times 94% for a girl calculation goes haywire in my family. One of my nephews is 6'4" at 15 and one of the shortest kids in his class. I have been waiting almost nine years for my daughter to pop up to 90th+ percentile like I always was, but it seems to not be in the cards..... I love MY little hobbit anyway (she also has hairy toes).

 

[monkeysmom]

Said that wrong, meant to say one of my nephews is 6'4" and another one is one of the shortest kids in his class (and definitely the shortest on his football team)..... He's really tough and strong though.

 

[mimi]

What do you call a tall person with hair on their toes? But I shave my toes....so no one knows but me. I find the height thing interesting too. I am on the taller side but my daughter has never managed to break the 50th percentile for height or weight. I think she is sort of a half and half slow and fast twitch. Though she stunk in her mile run in gym class but beat all the boys in pushups.... so who knows. She does seem to be faster and a better jumper these days that she spends more time in the gym. In the mornings before school all cylinders are firing (or not firing) on ssllloooow twitch...... Her paternal grandparents are really short, though her dad is around 5'11" so I really don't know why she is on the shorter side. A couple of my siblings have really tall kids, and one of my brothers and and I have shorter kids. Who knows... The average of the parents times 94% for a girl calculation goes haywire in my family. One of my nephews is 6'4" at 15 and one of the shortest kids in his class. I have been waiting almost nine years for my daughter to pop up to 90th+ percentile like I always was, but it seems to not be in the cards..... I love MY little hobbit anyway (she also has hairy toes).

Ha! My dd would kill for 50th percentile. She is not even on the chart!!! They have to make a special one for her.

 

[wallinbl]

stay away from the 400. It is a horrible race quite possibly only equaled by the 800

Yep. I wasn't fast enough for the sprints and didn't have the endurance for cross country. I got stuck in the no man's land of these two races in high school track. Running them both, heats included, in a meet is torture. Looking back, I have no idea why I did it.

Try running at 85-90% of full sprint for half a mile. That's an 800.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Said that wrong, meant to say one of my nephews is 6'4" and another one is one of the shortest kids in his class (and definitely the shortest on his football team)..... He's really tough and strong though.

and probably has no hair at all, no?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Yep. I wasn't fast enough for the sprints and didn't have the endurance for cross country. I got stuck in the no man's land of these two races in high school track. Running them both, heats included, in a meet is torture. Looking back, I have no idea why I did it.

Try running at 85-90% of full sprint for half a mile. That's an 800.

i think that will definitely put hair on your toes...