Insight and Ethics question mostly to coaches . . .

[Muddlethru]

But anyone's insight is certainly welcome.

We have a gymnast whose parent works for an airline company. As such, they get significant discount on airfare which they can pass on to anyone they want. This parent just recently decided to take her daughter to the Olympic Trials. She then also extended an invitation to our two head coaches/gym owners and their daughter to come along and offered to take care of their airfare. This parent has done this another time a few months ago-passed on free airfare to one of the head coaches/gym owners above and her family for a trip unrelated to gymnastics. I believe that is none of my business and it is the gymnast's family's prerogative to do as they please.

But I think there is a twist and some hidden agenda involved. First, the gymnast and the daughter of one of the head coaches/gym owners are not even good friends. In fact, the gymnast has indicated in several ocassions she does not like the coach's daughter. In addition, the gymnast's best friend for 4 years is in the same team. But the gymnast's best friend is doing so much better than the gymnast, finishing almost 2 full points in most meets since they were level 5. Still they remain very good friends. So, i am thinking if it is
company to the Olympic Trials the gymnast's family needs, the clear choice would be the best friend (the
parents all get along quite well). In addition, it is becoming more apparent that the parent is working real hard
to get real close to the gym owners.

My question is, as coaches and gym owners, do you feel compelled to pay special attention to the gymnast
because of the efforts of the parents? Would it maybe cause you to favor the gymnast? Also what do you
think of this scenario?

 

[mommyof1]

Is the best friend by any chance your daughter? If my daughter were the best friend, I am sure I would be disappointed that her feelings were hurt by not being invited. I would encourage her to discuss the situation with me as much as she wanted and try to help her come up with a constructive plan of action, but it would ultimately be up to the two girls to work out their relationship.

 

[Muddlethru]

Is the best friend by any chance your daughter? If my daughter were the best friend, I am sure I would be disappointed that her feelings were hurt by not being invited. I would encourage her to discuss the situation with me as much as she wanted and try to help her come up with a constructive plan of action, but it would ultimately be up to the two girls to work out their relationship.

Mommyof1, thanks for your response, but the issue is not the relationship between the two gymnast, as I believe this incident would not change it one way or another. In any event, IF my daughter was the best friend, I would not let her go anyway and/or I could not accept something like this unless it is from a family member or life long good friend. I was mostly wondering how efforts of a parent would affect the relationship between the coach and the gymnast. Would a parents actions or inaction cause a coach to favor a gymnast, etc. And/or what people thought of a parent giving coaches exhorbitant gifts, etc

I believe that it is human nature to eventually start to favor someone, whether consciously or subconsciously, because of the benefits being received and/or in hopes of getting more benefits. I wondered how much of an advantage a gymnast stands to gain.

 

[flipflopcrystal]

as a coach, this is a tough answer.

I think that it is a good opportunity for any coach to be able to go, so if the opportunity presents itself, it would be hard for someone to decline it.

However the issue here is that of "special interests" and all good coaches know there are people who try to "buy" their way in and out of situations, we all have "crazy" gym parents, and parents who don't say much at all...

Without this coming off too harshly...As soon as their child steps out onto the floor for practice, I no longer care about the parents. Practice each and everyday is for the best ineterest of the kids and each and every one of them is fairly coached with that mindset. I have parents openly yell at me, parents who try to tell me how to coach, parents who buy us dinner, starbucks cards...etc but I don't associate that with the kids....

If the parent chooses to give gifts, that is up to them, but any good coach knows that a gift is a GIFT and not a "payment" for special treatment. If a parent argues with me, I don't go out and then be mean to their child...common sense people!

And if that particular family expected special treatment because of such an expensive gift, well.... they should expect a Thank You and make sure your daughter is on time to practice and focused!

I hope your coach has some common sense!

 

[Muddlethru]

Thanks you so much for your respponse flipflopcrystal. That is great to know.

I hope so!

 

[gymcoach34]

I would feel really wierd accepting this kind of gift as a coach. There might be more to it than you know about, like maybe the trip in exchange for tuition, or something like that? If not, I would feel like the person presenting such an elaborate gift would THINK they would get extra in return. IF I would accpet something like this (I probably would not)-it would make me feel strange-and I would make sure the person knew nothing extra or unfair would be a result of it.

(I know who your coaches are, how can they all take that time off at the same time?)

 

[Muddlethru]

I would feel really wierd accepting this kind of gift as a coach. There might be more to it than you know about, like maybe the trip in exchange for tuition, or something like that? If not, I would feel like the person presenting such an elaborate gift would THINK they would get extra in return. IF I would accpet something like this (I probably would not)-it would make me feel strange-and I would make sure the person knew nothing extra or unfair would be a result of it.

(I know who your coaches are, how can they all take that time off at the same time?)

Just to clarify, the gift does not really cost the parent anything, or at most minimal. According to the parent, one of the HC approached her asking if she could get the HC airfare discount for a sport related trip for her other child. The parent has over 20 "discount" tickets a year to give out. The tickets cost $22 roundtrip anywhere in the US. So, instead of the $1,500 it would have cost the HC's family to fly, she only paid $88. So the trip to San Jose would cost the parent only $22 per ticket. Certainly, it is not substantial out of pocket, but the benefit is subatantial, so to speak. Maybe this makes a difference and I should have mentioned it.

Nonetheless, I think only one coach and the niece may be going. And as far as taking time off, all our HC accompanied one of the HC's daughter to JO Nationals. They were gone about 5 days from the gym. So, I don't think being gone at the same time would be an issue. But in this case, it is not anyway since only one coach maybe going.

I am not implying my daughter's coaches are unethical in any way. They are human, and I just wondered what the implications are given this scenario. I know them not to take things put on the gymnast, at least one of them. But if these "free rides" happens more and more, I just wondered really.

Lastly, I am pretty sure there is no kind of bartering in this deal. One HC likes the parent. The other two do not not like her vut have stated, she does get on their nerves because she talks too much. The same parent has offered, and is doing the team's meet assessents and books. The parent "seems" like a good person. But all
these offers make me wonder. Maybe I am too cynical.

 

[wallinbl]

Just to clarify, the gift does not really cost the parent anything, or at most minimal. According to the parent, one of the HC approached her asking if she could get the HC airfare discount for a sport related trip for her other child. The parent has over 20 "discount" tickets a year to give out. The tickets cost $22 roundtrip anywhere in the US. So, instead of the $1,500 it would have cost the HC's family to fly, she only paid $88. So the trip to San Jose would cost the parent only $22 per ticket. Certainly, it is not substantial out of pocket, but the benefit is subatantial, so to speak. Maybe this makes a difference and I should have mentioned it.

I thought this was clear from the first post.

While I enjoy being friendly with the coaches, I also want to maintain the appropriate relationship such that the coaching is not interfered with. I don't want them to hesitate to say what needs to be said and feel like they'd infringe on the friendship. I don't want them to feel like they owe me anything other than what I'm paying for. Emotions are a strange beast.

Just a note - the person might enjoy the thought of watching the national championships with an expert sitting next to them. The insight and perspective would be interesting. I can see the appeal.

 

[GymBee97]

This is going to sound harsh but i don't mean it to sound that way but really its none of your business unless you and your child aren't getting what you paid for at the gym. It doesn't matter if another family is getting something extra for providing tickets or what ever.

all that matters is are you getting what you contracted with the gym to get - if you are, then what difference does it make to you what the heck others are doing. you may not like what or how they are doing things but it really isn't anyones business. Maybe in exchange for tickets the coaches agreed to do so many privates or provide extra help that is their business. You probably don't know all the details of how things came about so its best just to stay out of it and not assume things. I barter for things all the time giving what I have to offer for things i want or need. Nothing wrong with that. With the airline tickets it doesn't matter if it was free to the family there is still value to them and saved the receipents a ton of money that they would have had to pay if not for the kindness of this family. To recipricate the favor by giving a few extras at the gym I totally understand and don't think there is anything wrong or unethical with it.

You don't have to like it or even approve of it because unless you aren't getting what you paid for x amount of hours of training for x days a week for x amount of money then it really doesn't have anything to do with you.

It really doesn't matter who is friends with whom. this is a deal between the other people and the coaches no matter who they invite or don't invite isn't anyones business. Everyone can't be invited to everything and there are no rules that say best friends have to be invited to everything.

to start getting into their business is just creating a drama for yourself that doesn't need to be there.

there really would be alot less drama in general if folks didn't worry so much about what others are getting or not getting and just worry about if they are getting what they are supposed to get.

 

[gymgal]

I have 2 thoughts:

1. If this situation truly is as written, the it is a Huge conflict of interest that can only lead to problems. It's not the actual cost but the perceived cost and if you're questioning the ethics of this situation, you can bet others are too. But there may be more to it than was has been revealed to you.

2. A generic question about very expensive coaches gifts resulting in gymnast bias would have surficed. You probably have posted way too much information, which may eventually expose you to the parties involved. More than one poster has been burned in their own gym by bringing up questionable gym practices on these boards. I personally would just stay out of it.

 

[coachmolly]

As a coach, I would have a great deal of difficulty accepting such a gift, regardless of the out of pocket cost for the family, from the parent of a gymnast. Even if it is a good opportunity for the coaches, it's just too much and places everyone in an uncomfortable situation, especially because it is a "for fun" trip in the company of the gymnast and her parent(s). Though I do know of some coaches who would be the type to eat that kind of treatment right up and milk it for all it's worth, even if it means giving preferential treatment to that particular gymnast.
If the parent has excess tickets to use or lose and knows the coach could really use them to visit family, attend a mandatory event for themselves/a child, or help the booster club out with travel expenses for the coach, I feel like that might be a little bit of a different story.
I think, at least for now, I would just view this as a one time thing and not get too wrapped up in it unless it starts to happen consistently and interfere with the treatment of your DD.

 

[Muddlethru]

Thanks to all the coaches who responded and addressed the question. I realize it is a question that does not have a right or wrong answer with potemtially negative implications. I know I posted the question as potentially an ethical question. But I now feel it may not be an ethical question. At our gym, the coaches try to create a family environment. Often times, good or bad, they get too friendly with the parents. This makes me a little uncomfortable. I prefer a more professional environment. So because of the friendly/family philosophy of our gym the discount tickets may have very little impact on anything. I posted my question basically just to get a consensus of how coaches in general felt about this scenario. But I do realize now that even if there is a general consensus with the coaches that responded, it still does not mean there are any negative implications on our coaches for accepting the "gift. There may just be too many variables, i.e., gym environment, coaches personality, parents financial situation, personalities, relationships, etc.

To gyymbee97, to state that "it is none of my business" makes it evident that you missed the whole point of the post. Though I appreciate the time you took responding to my post, I think you jumped too quickly to a conclusion that may have been entirely your own biases.

To gymgal, thankz for your concern of my potentially exposing myself with too much information. But i do not think my post is derogatory at all. And if my daughter's coaches figure it out and take offense in it, then maybe there is more to it than meets the ye. I am not overly concerned. If it does cause a problem, so be it. As all the coaches who responded to this post have indicated, it is not a gift they would accept. Hence, just maybe the scenario is not as innocent as I might have thought.

 

[gymdog]

I would not accept a gift like this, and I make no attempts to "befriend" parents (as in, having dinner and/or drinks with them, etc). I am available to meet with them or email them all the time regarding their child's performance at gymnastics practice, but that is it.

 

[bookworm]

I would try to fly below the radar on his one...I can see where the coach would use the ticket offered to her if the parent was going to "lose it" anyway although as time goes on , maybe someone could befriend the airline parent and suggest that her freebies could be used when the whole team goes on travel meets as a way of defraying some of the coaches' expenses...

 

[Aussie_coach]

I would not accept the offer. It would put me in a compromising situation. It would be too easy for the parent to say " hey we did this for you, so can you do this for us". I don't think it is appropriate. However, if the owners do accept the family must realize that a gift is a gift and no special favors should be expected in return.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

bad ethical scenario. this would NEVER happen in our gym. if not now, but later on, this will turn in to the old saying...no good deed goes unpunished. that's all.

 

[Muddlethru]

It is interestng to see that all the coaches who responded to this post would not accept the "gift". I see a lot of wisdom in that. And for the record, I had no doubt in my mind that my daughter, and/or family would not be affected by this. I merely posted this scenario as if discussing a current event (i.e. discussing a decision made in the white house, or discussing a reaction or behavioue of a particular person). I found no harm in that and was not making anything my business or my problem.

Having said that, i think this scenario would only adversely affect the coach and the family. About five years ago, another family donated $2k worth of trophies to our local meet. The Monday after the meet, the daughter had a scheduled private with one of the head coaches/gym owners. BTW, this story was relayed to me by the parent involved. He said he had the $60 in his pocket ready to pay for the private lesson. Then he thought, "wouldn't it be nice if for this one time the HC would say, 'don't worry about paying for this private. I got it since you donated all those trophies'". Instead, he said, the HC took the money. In the coaches defense, it may have been an innocent oversight and she did not make the connection between the trophies and the private. She may have been just focused on the private and out of habit just took the money. But my point in bringing this up is not to pass judgement on the coach but to say that the parent somehow whether he donates the trophies entirely out of the kindness of his heart and initially without intending to have any strings attached, did in fact attach strings. This gymnast left our gym almost three years ago. And Funny thing is, I heard this story being retold by other team members, even just recently by parents who did not even know the family. Obviously, this parent told more than one family. So it does bite you in the end. The bite may be worth it depending on your own values or it may not be worth it.

To bookworm, your suggestion sounds great to me. But I think the family has a large extended family they can give the tickets to and the family has never offered the tickets in that manner. I tell you, it makes me want to work in the airline business. The immediate family (kids and spouse) get unlimited free flights anywhere the airlines and its partners fly. In addition, they are given 20 or more discounted flights to be given to extend families, friends, coaches.

Thanks again to those that responded.

 

[JessLW]

I live in a culture where there is a LOT of strings attached gifting and my kid's school, which is an international school but with a majority local student body, actually had to make a rule that teachers were not, under any circumstances, to accept valuable gifts from parents/students. Draw a picture, bake cookies, a world's best teacher mug -- all appropriate ways to say thanks. Cash and other valuables, no. I worked at their school briefly and during one staff meeting a teacher talked about how a parent gave her an envelope and she accepted unthinkingly, opened it up, and inside was a bank card and instructions for accessing the account. She freaked out and showed it to the principal and the principal said return it and good thing you came to me right away because if you'd accepted this we'd have had to fire you. But it happens ALL the time here. If you look on Chinese parenting boards there are whole discussions about how much cash you should give your children's teachers and how if you don't make cash gifts the teachers won't treat your children as well. Totally nuts, but that's the culture here. I feel like it doesn't happen as much in the States but I'm sure in certain circles it is probably fairly common.

So anyhow, this kind of gifting can be hugely problematic for a lot of reasons and it would be a bad idea for the coaches to set the precendent. Even if it was meant in a totally innocent way, these things can easily get out of hand. I also think that while there not be any explicit strings attached, it will also be hard for the coach, having accepted such an amazing gift, to turn around and disappoint these parents. If there is an issue with this child, say for the sake of argument, bullying, will the coach still feel comfortable dealing with it harshly? It will probably also be hard for the parents to not think, in the back of their minds, "you know, couldn't he just work with her a little extra on bars? After all we did ...?"

Aside from that, it could also create a load of drama with the other parents. If you have any sort of crazy gym parent behavior at your gym, this is just the sort of thing that fuels it -- people will be speculating about special treatment and come move ups/uptraining/meet lineup/you-name-it time it'll be "well you know her parents paid the coach's way to the Olympic trials." They'll never hear the end of it.

So while it seems like a nice thing and a good idea and I'm sure the parents don't mean anything by it, it really is a bad idea to give or accept major gifts when you're in a relationship, like coach-athlete or teacher-student, that depends on a very fine balance of power and trust.

 

[iwannacoach]

I'd like to think that a gift is a gift, and can be given and received as such with-out being subjected to "review" by an ad hoc commitee of parents and coaches. The true cost of the tickets at $22.00 each, rather than the market value, should be the basis for discussion, and I see nothing wrong with a gift that costs $66.00.

While it's true that potential expectations of "payback" exist, there are many other, more subtle, means that are in place to accomplish this. My first example would be the parent who is deeply interwoven within the gym by volunteering for everything under the sun. Are they appreciated as a generous volunteer, or viewed as trying to curry favor for their child. What about private lessons? Many gyms allow coaches to offer privates where they can receive 2 to 4 times their hourly pay rate. If a parent has their child in the gym for a weekly private, are they just helping their child get past a hurdle on a difficult skill, or is it an attempt on the parent's part to "create value" with their involvement in their childs progress.

IMO, it all comes down to the strength and integrity of the coach, to resist temptation to favor any of the children in their program. It doesn't seem that a gift is going to make a difference if the coach knows how to treat the situation, and if they don't.....It wouldn't take much more than a cup of coffee a few times a week to get them to "line up" on the side of favoritism.

So that's my view. People are generally good folks, and I'd like to believe in them until they show me wrong. Maybe I'm a sucker, but I feel that life is far more enjoyable when it's lived in a state of belief in the good, with the capability to change course when the bad comes along.

 

[Muddlethru]

It is interestng to see that all the coaches who responded to this post would not accept the "gift". I see a lot of wisdom in that. And for the record, I had no doubt in my mind that my daughter, and/or family would not be affected by this.

I misstated. The not should not have been there. To reiterate, I don't think we would in anyway be affected or adversely affected, or I am not at all worried.

I like jesslw's post and tend to agree. And I also agree with iwannacoach inasmuch as people are generally good. I too believe that. Our coaches are good people and so is the family at issue. However, even good people make mistakes and make errors in judgement. In the situation I stated, someone is bound to get burned. I feel the coaches will go about their business making little if any modifications to their coaching. I know the family and they are a fun and good family. The mother is a good mother who is willing to do anything to help with the success of her daughter. I was shocked to hear she would go this distance as I know they have a large extended family and she has often used those tickets to fly family members for holidays and to even take care of her children because she and her husband have to work long hours. I think she'll be sadly
disappointed if she is expecting any kind of reciprocity, again I do not even know if she is even thinking in those terms.