Is there a reason for the rush to get to higher levels?

[sportzmomov3]

Ok, I'm going to latch on to something different in responding to the original question, avoiding all mention of the letters "o" and "e" and instead focus on the word "peak" which bogwoppit mentioned above. My comments are purely based on years of parental observations of all levels up to that unmentionable level.

Since most of us know that this sport is a marathon and not a sprint, the really good coach will train their gymnast to PEAK at the right time, based on her individual goals. Our DD's coaches stress the slow and steady approach in skill acquirement with a build-up rather than a race to the most difficult skills - even for our highest level gymnasts. They are experienced enough to know that just because other gyms have their gymnasts doing harder skills and have younger gymnasts in higher levels, doesn't mean that in the long term they will be successful. And in fact, reality has seemed to validate this. The main priority is staying healthy. If you aren't healthy, how the heck are you going to be able to compete? (Case in point, think of Aliya Mustafina's ACL injury this week. If she's lucky she'll be ready for Worlds next year.)

Let's take a look at it another way: how many repetitions does the average gymnast need to make in order to have decent execution of the skills required at each level? I would guess that it's several thousand at the higher optional levels (9/10) during the course of their regular season. That's a high level of physical pounding that the body has to endure. Multiply that at every level, over many years. The harder skills require more of the gymnast physically and also more reps in the stages of acquisition and perfecting execution. So, if you reach level 10 by the time you are 12 or 13, and you have a goal of moving past that point, you are looking at another 6+ years of training at that high skill level. When should you peak? Hmmm, my bet would be on the gymnast who hasn't spent that many years pounding her body but has reached that level later. Additionally, with all the injuries in the NCAA in recent years of former high profile gymnasts it would seem to support this theory at least a little.

So the answer I would give is, NO given your DD's age there is no rush to get there faster because yes, you'll most likely both get to the same point at the end of all this.

One final thought. Besides the physicality of the sport is the mental development of the gymnast. I've seen so many physically talented gymnasts who aren't successful long term because they don't have the mental toughness. Ulimately it doesn't matter if you are a prodigy, because if you don't have the maturity and mental edge to compete, then all the pretty tricks in the world won't do you a bit of good.

 

[Muddlethru]

Thank you gigglesmom09 for NOT concentrating on the O and E words and addressing the true question at hand. I read a couple posts of coaches regarding this topic. Below are snippets of their posts. To read their posts in its entirety, please refer to the link in my previous post.

From Aussiecoach:
"Every child should be allowed to move at their own pace, for some that pace is fast. You really can't say that a child isn't aiming for elite. Not many kids do, but that doesn't mean they won't change their minds.

This child may decide now that she doesn't want to go elite, what if they slow her progress down and she reaches an age where she changes her mind and wants to go elite, she will be regretting having her progress slowed down. Elite feels like a crazy unrealistic goal to many parents at the lower levels but when their kids hit level 10 things may change. The child will be older and have stronger goals and desires. Again it isn;t ever fair to say, what if the parents can't afford the elite track. Financial situations can change, but whats more priorities can change. Perhaps one day that child will reach level 10 and win the nationals, the family may decide that they are going to sacrifice many things for their daughter to continue on to elite."

From Valentin:
". . .i think that competitive gymnastics should be trained in that fashion, train everyone for elite regardless, at some stage they will figure out which path they want to take, regardless of that time it wont be time wasted. Because they will have many options available to them. If they leave young...lots of time to find something else, if they leave in the middle its not to late to find another passion, if they leave late (high level) than there are the alternative routes described by aussie_coach.

I for one am a great supporter of specializing kids from a young age, train them like they are going to stay in the sport forever. let them choose, don’t choose for them. These are safe choices... the decision is not life altering for most. In the wild the primal way to teach younglings is usually the adult guiding them, and supporting them as they experiment, test. "

I think there is a lot of good logic in this. So, I think the route paved for my DD may be the best one for her. If she is ready to be moved up, then she should be moved up no matter what goals or lack of goals she has currently. I wish most coaches treated their gymnasts this way . . . that every gymnast has the potential to go big.

 

[NGL780309]

Ok, I'm going to latch on to something different in responding to the original question, avoiding all mention of the letters "o" and "e" and instead focus on the word "peak" which bogwoppit mentioned above. My comments are purely based on years of parental observations of all levels up to that unmentionable level.

Since most of us know that this sport is a marathon and not a sprint, the really good coach will train their gymnast to PEAK at the right time, based on her individual goals. Our DD's coaches stress the slow and steady approach in skill acquirement with a build-up rather than a race to the most difficult skills - even for our highest level gymnasts. They are experienced enough to know that just because other gyms have their gymnasts doing harder skills and have younger gymnasts in higher levels, doesn't mean that in the long term they will be successful. And in fact, reality has seemed to validate this. The main priority is staying healthy. If you aren't healthy, how the heck are you going to be able to compete? (Case in point, think of Aliya Mustafina's ACL injury this week. If she's lucky she'll be ready for Worlds next year.)

Let's take a look at it another way: how many repetitions does the average gymnast need to make in order to have decent execution of the skills required at each level? I would guess that it's several thousand at the higher optional levels (9/10) during the course of their regular season. That's a high level of physical pounding that the body has to endure. Multiply that at every level, over many years. The harder skills require more of the gymnast physically and also more reps in the stages of acquisition and perfecting execution. So, if you reach level 10 by the time you are 12 or 13, and you have a goal of moving past that point, you are looking at another 6+ years of training at that high skill level. When should you peak? Hmmm, my bet would be on the gymnast who hasn't spent that many years pounding her body but has reached that level later. Additionally, with all the injuries in the NCAA in recent years of former high profile gymnasts it would seem to support this theory at least a little.

So the answer I would give is, NO given your DD's age there is no rush to get there faster because yes, you'll most likely both get to the same point at the end of all this.

One final thought. Besides the physicality of the sport is the mental development of the gymnast. I've seen so many physically talented gymnasts who aren't successful long term because they don't have the mental toughness. Ulimately it doesn't matter if you are a prodigy, because if you don't have the maturity and mental edge to compete, then all the pretty tricks in the world won't do you a bit of good.

I just wanted to point out in the case of Mustifina that you mentioned, that there are no World Championships next year. 2011 Worlds are in the fall and she won't make it back for those for sure. In 2012 there will be no Worlds because it's an Olympic year.

 

[Panda-girl's Mom]

I also think it really depends on the individual gymnast. If a kid is capable and talented of doing the skills why wouldn't you move them up. I also think they have to look at the gymnast some kids are never going to get the skills perfectly and score a 36 even if they repeat levels multiple times (I am actually thinking of my daughter) if a kid spends so many years stuck repeating compulsary levels the odds are they are going to get bored and quit. I think it is benfical to move them up to optional levels so they can have their own routines especailly if they are older. I think the orginal poster gave a great example many kids start out in the same level but some are going to move up faster than others. As far as reaching elite I am not sure the path and how fast they have to move up because daughters gym does not train elite. I have seen our coach move up really talented girls faster in hopes of a college scholarship ( one of daughters friends skipped levels eventhough she just started competing USAG a year ago). I can see why her form is amazing and she usually places at top in meets and if she has a chance why not. It sounds like the teammates parent of the poster of the girl with the olympic dreams is jealous I am happy for my daughters friend it is obvious that she has that extra specail something where she has the potential to go somewhere with the sport. As parents we all want our kids to do well but we have to realize not every kid is cut out for elite or college some kids just like doing gymnastics and competing to the best of their ability.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

My DD is a 9 yo L7. She has a teammate that is a 9 yo L5. They both started L4 together. Next year, they will both be up a level. So, my DD will be a 10 yo L8 and her teammate will be a 10 yo L6. Both are doing very well at meets. The mother of my DD's teammate said something to me that I found might have some merit. She told me, upon hearing my DD was moving up again, that "why the rush? And that it truly makes no difference in the long run because both our DD's will end up at the same place?"

Now, I know the mother of my DD's teammate has Olympic aspirations. She has enough photos of her DD with the Olympic 3 rings in the background and enough posting in Facebook to imply her DD will be going to the Olympics. Yes, as a mother I do dream of big things for my daughter. But I've read enough about the sport to realize that this is not for everyone, not even the extremely talented ones and so I try not to think too far ahead. But JUST FOR ARGUMENTS SAKE, if both girls want to realize an olympic dream, they will not be eligible until they are 19 yo. That is another 10 years! So, maybe getting to a higher level too quickly is not beneficial, or is it?

What are the advantages of getting to higher levels so quickly? Is there some kind of biological necessity to get them to higher levels quicker? Is it good to be an L10 or elite for a long time? On the other hand, I realize just as I am writing this post that maybe it is not even a matter of the coaches getting my DD to higher levels quickly but it has only become a bi-product to keep her progressing with really no forethought on how far she may go. Any thoughts on this?

if it's not done right there is no advantage.

 

[Azgymmiemom]

with all due respect, what is considered rushing? level 10 by age...? what? If you were going to try to get on a college team would you have to be a level 10 by your sophomore year so that colleges will look at you? Or do you rush them up by age 12 so that they don't discover boys and want to quit? I see some kids at our gym that I think it would be "rushing" them to move them to level 5...and these girls are 10 and 11 years old.

I heard a little "inside" birdie talk at our gym and say my dd is one of those girls they have picked to "rush" through levels 5 and 6 to get to optionals, but since we only compete optionals in jan-april here, she'd be 10 in level 7. Is that considered rushing? she'd do this fall as a 5, jan-april(2012) as a 6 and again sept-nov, then not compete 7 until jan-april 2013, when she would turn 10 during the season- at least this is my understanding. Nobody at our gym does one meet to "score out"....they compete the whole 4-6 meet season.

I thought this was a pretty good pace for her...but now I'm wondering if they shouldn't slow it down some-maybe let her do a whole year at 5 and 6, then 7 in 2014, when she is 11. They already have her doing giants and tsuk drills...and for the record, when her coach came out and told me she did a tsuk into the pit, I hadn't the foggiest idea what that skill is...I mean, I've heard of it from here, but I still couldn't explain to anyone what it is. off topic, I know. sorry.

So, is 10 years old a good age for level 7, or is that considered rushing-or on the other hand, too old for level 7?

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer to the question of how fast a kid should progress. Generally, patience is a virtue, and generally, it's best to spend a lot of time perfecting basics, but the specifics will vary widely from girl to girl. Gymnasts always go through a series of peaks and valleys and plateaus, and it is for the most part impossible to predict at which age and level these will occur (aside from the puberty plateau -- and even that varies a lot in duration and severity).

Trying to set a predictive timeline before hand is, in my opinion, not worth the effort. Just train a gymnast at the appropriate level for their abilities, let them move up as they are ready, and they'll land wherever they land.

I talked to Yin Alvarez (Danel Leyva's coach) the other day at regionals, and he said something I really liked. I'm paraphrasing a bit here, but it was along the lines of: "you need a hundred successful repetitions of any skill before you build on it. Some kids will take a hundred attempts to do that, some will take a thousand, some will take a million."

 

[Sarah'sMom]

<<<Lilgymmie 7 - "I would love a scholarship, but I am fully aware that if I started now and put away her monthly tuition every month, I'd more than pay her full ride to college- Kid is only 7!">>>

I love this! I think the same thing. And, I've said that to people who mention scholarships to me, who are shocked that not all very good gymnastics get those.

And, really.....I started my daughter at 3 1/2 just looking for a dance class for an incentive to get her out of pull-ups. Since the dance place I found was really a gymnastics place with dance classes, I started a combo class. I had in mind visions of mats and somersaults, and what I got was upside down hanging on bars, balance beams, trampolines, etc. and she quit dancing 3 months later because she only wanted to do gymnastics. Now, we are where we are ... my daughter is working to try to compete next year or the year after and I will support her as much as I possibly can. At least she's having fun!!

 

[Swiftli]

Here is my humorous spin on things..I think your DD teammate's mom is just trying to get in your head and take out the competition . She wants you to slow your daughter down so her daughter can catch up and get some of the glory and spotlight in the gym. She is passing her insecurities onto you. She isn't wondering why the rush on your part, she is wondering "Why is my DD only a lvl 6 when she is obviously just as good as good as yours, I mean they are the same age and all?" LOL

Seriously though, some babies walk and talk earlier than others do, that doesn't mean we hold them back because we are "rushing" them. We should encourage them to reach their full potential when they are ready, not when others think they should be ready. Their bodies will do what comes natural on their schedule not according to someone's "big plan".

You are not rushing if she is ready and able. You are just allowing natural progression.

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

Here is my humorous spin on things..I think your DD teammate's mom is just trying to get in your head and take out the competition . She wants you to slow your daughter down so her daughter can catch up and get some of the glory and spotlight in the gym. She is passing her insecurities onto you. She isn't wondering why the rush on your part, she is wondering "Why is my DD only a lvl 6 when she is obviously just as good as good as yours, I mean they are the same age and all?" LOL.

Honestly this is what I thought too!!

 

[Muddlethru]

with all due respect, what is considered rushing? level 10 by age...? what? If you were going to try to get on a college team would you have to be a level 10 by your sophomore year so that colleges will look at you? Or do you rush them up by age 12 so that they don't discover boys and want to quit? I see some kids at our gym that I think it would be "rushing" them to move them to level 5...and these girls are 10 and 11 . . .

So, is 10 years old a good age for level 7, or is that considered rushing-or on the other hand, too old for level 7?

This is just my opinion and as I am fairly new in the gymnastics world (my DD has only been doing gymnastics for 2 and a half years), I am not claiming to be an expert. I believe my DD is being rushed. But is she ready, basing on how she is doing at the meets,she is very ready. I believe when a gymnast is not allowed to do a whole year in one level, they are being rushed. They are forced to learn two routines in one year and deal with new level teammates. They do get added pressure than the other girls. Wherein by the middle of the season, the other girls are settling into their routines and are getting more confident competing them, my DD is learning a new routine and starting over. Could she have stayed inher level and be happy, I thnk so. Was she thrilled she was the only one being moved up, I think so. It does make her believe she is good. She has done unbelievable well in Level 7. Of the three meets she has competed in Level 7, she placed 4th AA on her very first meet and 1st AA on the last two meets. So, it would appear that she was ready. Regardless of how well she is doing, I think she was still rushed. She was also placing 1st AA as a level 6. So, which one would have been best for her, staying with her friends for the rest of the year and "taking it easy", or move up and have the challenge of learning and competing new skills. Honestly, it is a toss up, even for my DD. Though I am not sure what is best for her, it would seem that since the future holds no guarantees, I think it is best to keep moving her along. It is better to have to slow down than do catch up. Valentin's post on this issue makes a lot of sense.

As for the poster above, it may very well be your DD is beng rushed but at the same time she may be ready and capable of handling a more demanding route.

 

[<3gymgurl26<3]

I agree with Tumblequeensmom. There is no right answer to that. It is whatever the coach feels is right and what the gymnast feels like she can do.yes, it is good to get her to do some of the skills when she is younger because they don't think about if they are going to hurt themselves or not(not your DD just in general). sometimes, the longer you are in a level, the harder it gets and the more risky it gets....
One of the girls who used to go to my gym (in college now) was in level 10 since she was 10 years old, and don't get me wrong, she was really good. She competed level 10 every year since then. She eventually hurt her shoulder really bad and ended up having to get surgery at about age 15. After that, she worked extremely hard to get her skills back for her last year competing and hopefully get a scholarship. She was unable to get all of her skills back but she did get her vault back. At the end of the year, she ended up getting a vault scholarship. She didn't except it because she didn't feel completely confident with competing even more with her bad shoulder...
I'm not saying that is going ot happen to your DD, but it was really sad because she was a really hard worker. From what I understand, your DD is a hardworker and I don't want her to get hurt like the girl at my gym...

 

[Muddlethru]

I agree with Tumblequeensmom. There is no right answer to that. It is whatever the coach feels is right and what the gymnast feels like she can do.yes, it is good to get her to do some of the skills when she is younger because they don't think about if they are going to hurt themselves or not(not your DD just in general). sometimes, the longer you are in a level, the harder it gets and the more risky it gets....
One of the girls who used to go to my gym (in college now) was in level 10 since she was 10 years old, and don't get me wrong, she was really good. She competed level 10 every year since then. She eventually hurt her shoulder really bad and ended up having to get surgery at about age 15. After that, she worked extremely hard to get her skills back for her last year competing and hopefully get a scholarship. She was unable to get all of her skills back but she did get her vault back. At the end of the year, she ended up getting a vault scholarship. She didn't except it because she didn't feel completely confident with competing even more with her bad shoulder...
I'm not saying that is going ot happen to your DD, but it was really sad because she was a really hard worker. From what I understand, your DD is a hardworker and I don't want her to get hurt like the girl at my gym...

I think injury is always a fear for any gymnast. It is a concern across the board, from level 1 to olympians. At our gym, gymnasts of all levels have had mild injuries and more serious ones that have taken them out for entire season. We currently have a gymnast who was a junior international elite, injured her ankle just walking and needed surgery. She had very limited training for almost a year. She still is trying to requalify. Then again, we had a gymnast who was part of the National Team way back. She never injured herself. It is indeed a sad story to hear anyone hurting themselves. My point is fear can be limiting and very little can be accomplished if we let fear set in. I thank you for your concern. But we put the "i" (injury) word in the same place as the "O" and "E" word. I would hope that a greater majority of gymnasts' careers are not shortened unecessarily.

 

[standsonherhands]

All of the practical parts of me are for not rushing. I prefer this approach, and not rushing was our gym's approach as well. I will however add - not rushing through the levels should not equate to not doing enough to challenge a talented gymnast with regard to uptraining. Gymnasts can be stressed by moving too quickly and by not being challenged enough. My dd left the sport a few months ago, and I believe the majority of the reason is that she wasn't having any fun in gymnastics - which can be read, she wasn't learning any new skills during competition season. Dd might have left any way, perfecting of routines wasn't fun for her, but the gym may well have kept her longer had they given her a few carrots to chase along the way. Finding that balance for each gymnast on the team must be a very difficult challenge for the coaches.

 

[iluvgym]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but some food for thought: MOST elites and successful Level 10s/NCAA athletes were at Level 9 by the time they were 11 years old, so for a super talented girl a ten year old Level 8 is the norm. I think it's all about how it's handled. Is someone being rushed and just chuck ugly skills so the coach can say they have a 10 year old level 8 or 9, or is she just really talented, hard working and well coached with great basics and would be bored repeating the same stuff all the time. Remember you don't get a scholarship being level 6 state champ! But for a kid who doesn't have the ability or desire to be a really high level gymnast, then going slow and hanging out at compulsories for many years will make her feel happy and successful. Different paths for different kids I say!