Parents Judging harder in some states or regions?

[gymgal]

I completely agree with and I definitely don't spend time worrying about gyms that "sandbag." I just find it interesting more than anything else.... and I often wonder how those other parents feel about it.

We are not in one of those gyms but I would guess that those parents are saying to themselves "why do gyms allow their girls to compete at levels they clearly are not ready to compete? If you can't consistently stick a routine, you have no business competing it." I think it really is just a different set of beliefs in what does "ready for competition" mean.

I'm often reminded of P.J. O'Rourke saying - [italics]That's because I have a 13-year-old daughter And that's all I hear, "That's not fair," she says. "That's not fair! That's not fair!" And one day I snapped, and I said, "Honey, you're cute, that's not fair. Your family is pretty well off, that's not fair. You were born in America, that's not fair. Darling, you had better get down on your knees and pray that things don't start getting fair for you."[/italics]

yes - first world problems...

We've even been to meets where they went out every place for every event for every age group. Like my daughter said, you really want to stand up there when it's just announced that you got last place?!

DD was recently at a meet where she was called up and awarded medals in events that she didn't compete! - because they went out all places... crazy

I don't know, I'm just really confused why mastery at one level would mean they must have the next level skills. Does not compute.

perhaps if you are talking compulsory where a program may drill the routines forever to perfection (Why?! I have no idea) and do no uptraining. But very few gyms obtaining 37+ consistently in optionals are in this predicament. Those girls getting 37+ typically have the skill set for the next level. Perhaps not enough to get a 37 but certainly to get 35+. At some point, those gymnasts were "held back" from competing so that they would go into the next level capable of earning 37+ - whether it was in pre-team where they trained entry level skills/routines or they repeated a lower level to give them the edge - train up, compete down.

It is what it is. just a difference in coaching philosophy. I think it is so noticeable because most gyms don't have this belief, so when parents and gymnasts come across it at meets, they don't understand it.

Having my dd go up the ranks, I have come to realize that it often washes out after several years of level 10, if the gymnast can get that far and has developed good form along the way. However, most gyms recognize that not everyone is going to level 10 and they want their girls (and boys) to enjoy their time in the gym, feel success by learning new skills and routines, even if they are not medal worthy. The motivation and fulfillment doesn't come from the podium at the meets but from skill development in the gym.

 

[gymbeam]

perhaps if you are talking compulsory where a program may drill the routines forever to perfection (Why?! I have no idea) and do no uptraining. But very few gyms obtaining 37+ consistently in optionals are in this predicament. Those girls getting 37+ typically have the skill set for the next level. Perhaps not enough to get a 37 but certainly to get 35+. At some point, those gymnasts were "held back" from competing so that they would go into the next level capable of earning 37+ - whether it was in pre-team where they trained entry level skills/routines or they repeated a lower level to give them the edge - train up, compete down.

It is what it is. just a difference in coaching philosophy. I think it is so noticeable because most gyms don't have this belief, so when parents and gymnasts come across it at meets, they don't understand it.

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again, some gyms might do that (hold back before competing rather than repeating levels later), but you can never assume that gyms scoring really high are somehow manipulating things to achieve their success. gyms dont have to hold back girls anywhere to be highly successful. heck, my daughter walked into gym at 8 with no prior sports experience at all and is now just shy of 12 competing level 8 earning 37+ since the beginning of the season. she was obviously not held back to make it to where she is now. she never even did preteam. did rec for a couple months and went straight to team. just really good coaching by a gym who is fortunate enough to have a big talent pool to select from.

it really bugs me (obviously- lol!) when people can't just accept that there are athlete/coach combinations that are able to time training so well. that's basically what it boils down to. its a well oiled machine.

 

[gymbeam]

One more thing- even though my DD has been uber close to 38 this season at Level 8 and several of her teammates always get them, the only thing for level 9 they have been working for a while is an overshoot. My dd does not have a double back bars dismount, hasnt worked a punch front something or another for floor, or a yurchenko lay for vault or HSLO on beam. she is not ready for the next level but i feel confident she will be by next january. she and her teammates are right where they should be. ok, i've beat this dead horse enough now. i'll try and let it go.

 

[dancingimmie]

Most of the gyms in my area spend years in compulsory levels, yes years. My dd has a friend at a different gym they both started on team at the same time she is on her second year of level 3 and my dd is training lvl 6/7. It doesn't matter how good the kid is they all repeat. Last summer the HC and I had a difference of opinion and I took my dd to a trial at a different gym (not her friends). Well, their lvl 4s were doing giants. This seemed odd to me so I looked them up and some of them were on their 3rd yr as a lvl 4. Needles to say HC and I work out our differences.
My dd's gym looks at every kid individually. Some kids repeat, some move quickly scoring out of levels (not usual). We compete against these "sandbaggers" and they sweep the compulsory awards. But i know it will eventually even out. I don't know how they deal with listening to that music year after year?!?!

 

[LizzieLac]

This is what we tell our kids:

The only thing you can control is yourself - your training, your emotions, how hard you work, the goals you set, your mental state, your preparation, etc.

The rest of it is a distraction and a waste of time. Worry about yourself. Put in 100% effort. Done.

 

[sce]

I do 100% personally believe that there are some gyms that do this... but not all of them do. My DD competed level 4 two fall seasons ago mostly in the 37-38 range, and is now competing level 7. She 100% was not ready for level 7 last spring (and they had no level 6s... so...). While my DD is not winning everything this year, I think she's mostly doing pretty well, and she's often been in contention for an event or two. Things just clicked at the right time for her (seriously - until this fall, we weren't sure she'd be ready for 7 this season, even... In fact, one of her best placing events so far this season... Skills were nonexistent in September).
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There is a level 5. Your situation is one that is frustrating to others. Your kid was more than proficient at level 4 and could have moved up a level. Instead she repeated beating kids who were appropriately at that level.

 

[kayjaybe]

How do people even know or realize that little Susie from some other gym scored 37+ in L4 last year and is competing L4 again this year? I can barely remember my dd's own scores DURING the meet, let alone some other kid who I don't even know from some other team what scores and levels they were last year.

If you are using meetscores or some other app to delve down and see what the little superstar that beat your dd did last year, I encourage you to stop. You will enjoy your dd's sport so much more if you live in the moment and don't worry about what everyone else around you is doing. The knowledge won't change anything except to increase your anxiety level. Sometimes ignorance truly is bliss.

 

[Mish]

How do people even know or realize that little Susie from some other gym scored 37+ in L4 last year and is competing L4 again this year? I can barely remember my dd's own scores DURING the meet, let alone some other kid who I don't even know from some other team what scores and levels they were last year.

If you are using meetscores or some other app to delve down and see what the little superstar that beat your dd did last year, I encourage you to stop. You will enjoy your dd's sport so much more if you live in the moment and don't worry about what everyone else around you is doing. The knowledge won't change anything except to increase your anxiety level. Sometimes ignorance truly is bliss.

Yes, this. I got sucked into this, and thankfully, have moved on!!

 

[gymnastmom05]

How do people even know or realize that little Susie from some other gym scored 37+ in L4 last year and is competing L4 again this year? I can barely remember my dd's own scores DURING the meet, let alone some other kid who I don't even know from some other team what scores and levels they were last year.

If you are using meetscores or some other app to delve down and see what the little superstar that beat your dd did last year, I encourage you to stop. You will enjoy your dd's sport so much more if you live in the moment and don't worry about what everyone else around you is doing. The knowledge won't change anything except to increase your anxiety level. Sometimes ignorance truly is bliss.

I agreed with this for the most part. I can tell you I don't look at any other team at meets minus the few teams we have always been against. We are in a smaller gymnastics state so you pretty much learn the girls from the other gyms because you've seen them for years. Just like this year, my DD's arch enemy (a girl she has been against for 4 years and has always made her goal to beat her - for childish reasons - she has a similar name and it makes her mad at awards - because she was 7 when this "rivalry" started) wasn't at a meet that her gym competed. Obviously we were curious what happened to her so we looked it up online. Anyway, if you are regularly up against a team that either competes down or are notorious for having kids repeat levels , you know. In the reality of it, I don't think there are that many gyms that sandbag or compete down but there are a few and they do tarnish some of the competition part of gymnastics when they do this.

 

[twinmomma]

No I am suggesting that if you are starting the season at over 38, if most of team is starting at over 38 then they are likely to be in reality ready to move on but are being held for scores.

There should be a way to discourage holding kids back just to win, for the sole purpose of a W.

I like the earlier suggestion of if you are repeating, your score doesn't count for team. Or like IGC have a different award category.................

I never said don't compete. Asked why would it be looked at as punishment.

But WTF, if a kid is starting the season at 38.5, you are going to tell me she is not being held back??? I call BS, maybe not in all cases but in an awful lot of them.

Also as a parent, I want my kid to earn her medal, I don't want her to get one for just showing up. And I don't want her to get one because she is kept at a lower level to be a lock on the podium, so I can have bragging rights. That is not competing. So actually it makes perfect sense as someone who is not a medal for everyone person. Really how much of a victory is it to come in first when your skills are way ahead of the folks you are competing against. That's not competing, that's pretty much stealing it.

To clarify - you actually did. "There is another option. One could not compete until they are ready for the next level. Still train but not compete. If the current level has been mastered why even bother? Time would be better spent working on the new skills."

Our gym had a girl who started level 3 out the gate with no pre team in the 38s. She's now a level 6. Scored out of 4 and 5. BUT. Completed her Level 3 season. She earned the right to do it. She wasn't being held back, she just was that good. There's zero reason to force her to move up mid season just because she's beating everyone else legitimately. Maybe she didn't have a kip until the end of the season. Maybe she wasn't psychologically there yet. I'm reminded a little bit of the little girl in the youtube video whose dad asks if she needs help with the seat belt and she tells him to "worry about yourself."

Worry about your kid. My kid's been on the receiving end of sandbagging results and judging differences in regions. It sucks. But I would NEVER purport to tell or think that another kid shouldn't compete because she keeps beating my kid. That's horrible.

 

[MILgymFAM]

To clarify - you actually did. "There is another option. One could not compete until they are ready for the next level. But I would NEVER purport to tell or think that another kid shouldn't compete because she keeps beating my kid. That's horrible.

I won't talk about the rest since you know how I feel, but I will say that I have absolutely thought (last season in t&t) that a whole group of kids should be forced to move up or sit out. We would be talking to random parents at a meet and find out their whole group competed 2-3 levels below where they regularly train. The parents bragged about it openly. These girls didn't just win, they decimated. I do think that is ridiculous, and I do know it was the coaches hoping to make a name for the t&t side of that gym that matched the JO reputation.

One of those girls switched to a different gym this year and I don't know what's happened to the others- they haven't been in my DDs sessions this year (and there is no MSO for t&t), but I think it's nice that other kids get a shot at medals. My kid still isn't winning (she actually placed much higher last year, darn blocks), but it's nice that it seems like a real competition.

In our experience in t&t most kids move up quickly-start a season, scores rise over time, move up, process repeats- all in one season. It really did feel anomalous to see L6 girls getting 27-28s and their mom telling me it was because they were training optionals.

 

[skschlag]

I guess I am always surprised at what a big deal this is in WAG. I mean, D has to compete tomorrow against about 3 jr elites and kids who won nationals at this exact level last year. We know going in, barring a miracle, that there are at least 5 kids that are scoring higher than him, 1-2 training at OTC with the jr national team. BUt that is how it goes. It is what it is. He goes out, does his best, and then sees where he fits against them.

Of course, in MAG we have actual minimum ages that you have to be to compete levels, so these kiddos cannot move up just like D cannot. That helps

 

[gymbeam]

I won't talk about the rest since you know how I feel, but I will say that I have absolutely thought (last season in t&t) that a whole group of kids should be forced to move up or sit out. We would be talking to random parents at a meet and find out their whole group competed 2-3 levels below where they regularly train. The parents bragged about it openly. These girls didn't just win, they decimated. I do think that is ridiculous, and I do know it was the coaches hoping to make a name for the t&t side of that gym that matched the JO reputation.
.

yes, thats sandbagging.

 

[twinmomma]

I won't talk about the rest since you know how I feel, but I will say that I have absolutely thought (last season in t&t) that a whole group of kids should be forced to move up or sit out. We would be talking to random parents at a meet and find out their whole group competed 2-3 levels below where they regularly train. The parents bragged about it openly. These girls didn't just win, they decimated. I do think that is ridiculous, and I do know it was the coaches hoping to make a name for the t&t side of that gym that matched the JO reputation.

One of those girls switched to a different gym this year and I don't know what's happened to the others- they haven't been in my DDs sessions this year (and there is no MSO for t&t), but I think it's nice that other kids get a shot at medals. My kid still isn't winning (she actually placed much higher last year, darn blocks), but it's nice that it seems like a real competition.

In our experience in t&t most kids move up quickly-start a season, scores rise over time, move up, process repeats- all in one season. It really did feel anomalous to see L6 girls getting 27-28s and their mom telling me it was because they were training optionals.

gymbeam is right - this is true sandbagging. And I think therein lies the difference. I would believe that in 90% of the cases or so, it's because a kid may be uptraining but not ready yet for whatever reason. Example - in artistic, the jump from 4-5 is often held back by the flyaway on bars. You could have a girl repeat 4 and be amazing, but because of that damned flyaway or the BHS on beam, just not be ready. Or maybe she had an injury and had to repeat because she couldn't, whatever. In T&T, seeing 27/28 at L6 while training optionals is ridiculous. But I do think they are the exception rather than the rule, and my feeling on most of things is not to create rules around exceptions, and deal with them as one offs. And when they do come up, it becomes a lesson for the kids who get beaten much more so than the kids who win.

 

[LindyHopper]

I think that there is a misconception here. Bear with my rambling here...

I find this sport interesting. I find all of the different philosophies and strategies interesting.

I don't think that people like me are bitter or cynical. I don't think we are looking for excuses for why our gymnasts aren't doing well. By no means are we coloring every gym with the same brush, nor are we whining that things aren't fair.

There are exceptional programs and abysmal ones
There are very selective programs and there are very inclusive ones
There are very large programs, and there are very small ones
Some programs have a mandatory score to move up, and others only require the USAG minimum
Some programs you have to have all of your skills at a competitive level before you move up, and others only require that you be "close" to move up, and hopefully you'll have the skills by your first meet.
Some programs rarely have gymnasts repeat, and some programs have gymnasts repeat for a variety of reasons
Some uptrain, some do not.
Some are high hours gyms, some are low hours
There ARE gyms that compete down, and there are gyms that are barely prepared to compete. I think most gyms compete at the level that best fits their philosophy.

My daughter is in the best program for her. The philosophy of the owners and coaching staff is what works for our family. We are happy there. My daughter is growing as a gymnast.

What other gyms do doesn't affect us, and I don't discuss them with my daughter.

But I like to talk with you all (and my husband) about what other gyms do and what their reasoning may be. Just because it's fun.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I think 2nd years should compete 2nd years....period. They have had the benefit of knowing routines and working them in front of judges for an entire season so why should they have the benefit over the newbie?! To me it would be the fairest way. But life isn't fair...

This, for compulsories where there is no ability to upgrade a routine.

That is how it is done in the lower level of IGC.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

There is a level 5. Your situation is one that is frustrating to others. Your kid was more than proficient at level 4 and could have moved up a level. Instead she repeated beating kids who were appropriately at that level.

Yes this is one of the situations.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I won't talk about the rest since you know how I feel, but I will say that I have absolutely thought (last season in t&t) that a whole group of kids should be forced to move up or sit out. We would be talking to random parents at a meet and find out their whole group competed 2-3 levels below where they regularly train. The parents bragged about it openly. These girls didn't just win, they decimated. I do think that is ridiculous, and I do know it was the coaches hoping to make a name for the t&t side of that gym that matched the JO reputation.

And this is the other situation. And quite honestly these kind of teams are not a secret, because its the same gym season after season.

We had a gym like this at our L5 state meet. Moms in the hotel at breakfast pretty much telling us their kids were L7 ready since summer.

And decimated was the right word. And what those girls should of done was scored out a meet in Sept and moved to 7. And this gym does it year after year............... Which is why it is easy to spot sandbagging. You just know the gyms that do.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

To clarify - you actually did. "There is another option. One could not compete until they are ready for the next level. Still train but not compete. If the current level has been mastered why even bother? Time would be better spent working on the new skills."

Our gym had a girl who started level 3 out the gate with no pre team in the 38s. She's now a level 6. Scored out of 4 and 5. BUT. Completed her Level 3 season. She earned the right to do it. She wasn't being held back, she just was that good. There's zero reason to force her to move up mid season just because she's beating everyone else legitimately. Maybe she didn't have a kip until the end of the season. Maybe she wasn't psychologically there yet. I'm reminded a little bit of the little girl in the youtube video whose dad asks if she needs help with the seat belt and she tells him to "worry about yourself."

Worry about your kid. My kid's been on the receiving end of sandbagging results and judging differences in regions. It sucks. But I would NEVER purport to tell or think that another kid shouldn't compete because she keeps beating my kid. That's horrible.

You missed the context and I'm not going to beat it to death.

The only kid I worry about is mine. This is a thread, a discussion, a vent.....................

Again, my kid is on the turtle track. She could be one of those strong gymmies. Was in early levels (the kid to beat). I say this not because she is mine, but because her coaches say it. Unfortunately for her coaches, she and we do not want to commit to the higher hours it would take. And she and we know it costs her a couple of places. But its OK she should make it to L7, probably even 8 (barring any serious injuries or blocks) and after that who knows, because middle/high school will beckon and I don't know what she will choose then.

She is not looking for a scholarship, elite and such. She is a strong, low hour, state and regional gymmie. She would rather be a low to mid 9 beam scorer at 9-12 hours, then a 9.8 at 20 hours. She likes gymnastics, she doesn't live for it. Whatever place that ends up is what it is. sometimes a medal sometimes not. She has room to improve those scores as the season progresses. Same with her other events. She knows the kids who go more are harder to beat, she gets it. We get it.

AND sandbagging bugs me and there could be things to mitigate it. Its a discussion and wishful thinking.

If we had sent her the hours to trounce the early levels she would of been done by now, due to burn out. So that works for us. We are good with the turtle track.

 

[cadybearsmommy]

We have a gym around here with the kind of reputation too. Their girls dominated silver their first year (after two years of bronze) and most of them scored 38 plus at state and they took three of the six spots on the state team for regionals. Then they had them all repeat silver and of scourse they scored high 38's all season long and decimated everyone. They swept four of the six state team spots and some of them were the same girls that had been on the state team the year before. People knew exactly what they were doing. That's how I heard about. Parents from all different gyms in the stands at meets talking about it. Parents were ticked. Some said they were going to complain to the regional comitteee not that it would do any good lol.

While it was frustrating to see, on another note it was sad for the girls on their team as well. These were some kids with beautiful form and obviously talented that had been streamed to Xcel bc they started a little older. With their skills they could have been doing optionals but this gym never considers their Xcel gymnasts for JO so these girls will be left in Xcel to sweep medals regardless of their potential unless thry switched gyms. And it's very possible they are ok with that and nothing wrong with doing Xcel we loved Xcel when my dd did it. But if the gym continues to repeat them when they have some of the higewst scores in the state they will have that reputation of sandbagging which is unfortunate for the kids who could most definitely be reaching higher levels if given the chance.