Should a girl be on Level 5 team without a kip?

[GymGirl's Mom]

Hello- I have been pondering this for a long time. I have noticed at Level 5 meets that often as much as 1/2 of girls on each Level 5 team we compete against the girls do not have their kip.

I have always felt like girls should have their kip before competing Level 5. Why compete a Level if you can't do all the skills? And I am not talking the first meet of the season- all season long.

What is the benefit of rushing girls to Level 5 without all the skills necessary to compete? Is skill progression best accomplished by uptraining the next Level skills during the current level and in the summer before the next season starts? Or do you think that many girls learn best when pushed into the next level missing skills with the hope they will acquire them as the season progresses? As I have seen option #2 doesn't seem to be working for a large number of girls (often 1/2 a team).

Do you think a girl should compete Level 5 is she is missing her kip-- and by missing her kip I mean 100% of the time has never gotten a kip.

 

[Bella's Mom]

At our gym, you have to be close to having a skill before you are moved up in early spring (we do move ups in April). Then you have all summer and the beginning of fall to get your skill. IF you haven't mastered it by then, you scratch the event. My guess would be you would have to repeat the level next year if you haven't gotten your kip by the move ups after your competition season.

ETA: For example, my daughter got moved up to L4. She doesn't have her ROBHS or her front splits. But she is VERY close to the ROBHS. She can throw it, it just isn't pretty. And her splits are about 3 inches from the floor. So the coaches are assuming that by competition season, she will have both. I am assuming that if she doesn't, she scratches floor.

 

[bookworm]

I would say that the kip is the gatekeeper skill for Level 5...without it, your scores will be dismal and why move a kid and scratch events if they do not have THE most basic skill for the level? makes no sense to me...

 

[MdGymMom01]

Hello- I have been pondering this for a long time. I have noticed at Level 5 meets that often as much as 1/2 of girls on each Level 5 team we compete against the girls do not have their kip.

I have always felt like girls should have their kip before competing Level 5. Why compete a Level if you can't do all the skills? And I am not talking the first meet of the season- all season long.

What is the benefit of rushing girls to Level 5 without all the skills necessary to compete? Is skill progression best accomplished by uptraining the next Level skills during the current level and in the summer before the next season starts? Or do you think that many girls learn best when pushed into the next level missing skills with the hope they will acquire them as the season progresses? As I have seen option #2 doesn't seem to be working for a large number of girls (often 1/2 a team).

Do you think a girl should compete Level 5 is she is missing her kip-- and by missing her kip I mean 100% of the time has never gotten a kip.

I think it depends on the strength of the other skills in the routine and on the other events. Let's take my dd for instance. She is still having fear issues with her ROBHS (although she has been working really hard at it but it is a very slow process). This is a Level 4 skill but she is competing the next level up (Level B for her league that she does that is comparable to USAG Level 5) and takes the deduction for any spotting and/or form issues during the meets. Her last meet she was able to do the ROBHS without a spot (MAJOR breakthrough for her) but got deducted for the hesitation between the RO and the BHS and some bent legs. Her score despite all that was a 9.20. All her other scores on the other events at this level are competitive (8.60-9.25). So, in my dd's case moving her up to the next level despite not totally having ONE skill at the previous level was the right choice for her. And to be honest, if she were to have to repeat Level 4 because of the ROBHS ONLY, she would probably have quit the sport and not participated at all. So, to have her still participating in the sport she loves (despite the fear issues that she battles daily) is a blessing. I am grateful for her coach and the league that allows kids to participate who may not have ALL their skills or struggle with fear on certain skills.

I don't think that moving a kid up to level 5 without a kip is necessarily "rushing". It does depend on their other events and the skills that they have and or don't have.

 

[gymcoach34]

no kip= no level 5. Its just not fair to the child to put them in that position. Would you put a kid in a soccer game who couldnt kick the ball??

 

[Megley]

There was a long thread on this topic some time ago. Maybe someone can find it. I think people fell into two camps - the should not compete Level 5 without a kip camp and the camp that said that under some circumstances (i.e., where the gymnast had repeated Level 4 several times, had all other skills and was close to kip and would not be heartbroken by bad bars scores), it made sense. That said, I am not sure I understand a team with half the gymnasts lacking a kip.

 

[GymGirl's Mom]

Sorry- I didn't know this topic had recently been visited. I guess i didn't see it. It's timely for me b/c several girls from DD's team (DD included) are being considered for a move to Level 5 without their kip. I am opposed to DD moving up to Level 5 without the kip-- other moms are all gung-ho. I said if DD gets her kip somewhat consistently (makes 3 out of every 5 tries) and the coaches want her to move up then she can move up- right now she is 0 for every 5 tries.

 

[NGL780309]

I would say no Level 5 if you don't have a kip. My DD's gym moves kids up to their expected level in the spring and they have until the fall to get all their skills. If for some reason they don't have all their skills, or don't have them consistent, they will compete the previous level or compete achievement. I think it's a good system. For Level 4 at DD's gym you have to be scoring a 35AA to compete Placement. I'm not sure if that requirement is the same for Level 5, but I think it is.

I think competition is stressful enough without worrying about doing skills that you haven't done in practice very successfully or at all. In my area, we really don't see very many girls competing that don't have the skills. In a session with 60 girls you might see 2 get spotted on their ROBHS. I have certainly seen many girls miss their kips, but you might see them miss one of the two kips, or make some in warm-up, but miss in the meet.

 

[gym law mom]

I would say that the kip is the gatekeeper skill for Level 5...without it, your scores will be dismal and why move a kid and scratch events if they do not have THE most basic skill for the level? makes no sense to me...

ITA with you on the kip. Its not just the gatekeeper for L5 bars, but also a major building block for all bar routines to follow. It takes some time to get a kip, the do it with proper form and then do it consistenly with proper form. In the end it does pay off.

 

[GymnastJoy]

Hmm...interesting one. At my dd's gym, girls can be on the level 5 team but not compete without kips (really there are 2 in the routine). The gym is not very competitive or score-focused, but HC feels that it is demotivating for girls to get such a low score on a routine. We have a girl who just got her kips but they are not pretty yet and she scored super-low on her bars routine at a fun, post-season meet. She "made" both her kips but because they were so slow, she couldn't make connections or really do tap swings. She was visibly shocked (as was her mom) at how low she scored since in thier minds, she did all the required skills. I have seen only one gym at meets who has girls compete without the kip. Some still made it to States and others did not because of low bar scores. So for them, missing the kip still gave them opportunity to compete and potentially place in other events. I have not been to a meet where someone has scratched an event (unless got injured during the meet). Maybe that's not done around here.

 

[Megley]

Sorry- I didn't know this topic had recently been visited. I guess i didn't see it. It's timely for me b/c several girls from DD's team (DD included) are being considered for a move to Level 5 without their kip. I am opposed to DD moving up to Level 5 without the kip-- other moms are all gung-ho. I said if DD gets her kip somewhat consistently (makes 3 out of every 5 tries) and the coaches want her to move up then she can move up- right now she is 0 for every 5 tries.

It was an interesting thread. I think this is the link:

http://www.chalkbucket.com/forums/technical-talk/30576-level-5-bar-deduction-questions.html

 

[All Chalked Up]

IMO yes they could. What if they have all the other requirements- maybe even bonuses- and they're beautiful skills, just a non-existant kip? I even seen a girl place without a kip, she placed 6th! That happened to a friend of mine, and she ended up placing on bars, and her all-around was 3rd- and she was missing her kips. It just all depends. Now if you had a girl who was missing many requirements, she'd repeat.

 

[coachmolly]

Hypothetically, if a kid has "beautiful" skills on every other event and for some reason just can't do a kip, then let them move up and skip over bars. But in my experiences, the kid missing a kip is also missing a handful of other skills or a good grasp on the basics. I know of one little girl who had a decent year as a first year level 4, not great by any means, but she got by with scores in the low 30s. The coaches moved her to level 5 where she cannot do either kip, has never made one in practice to my knowledge, and even her basic skills are really unrefined. Her AAs scores are comparable to a girl who has only competed 3 events. It's absolutely unnecessary for her to be competing as a level 5, and the rapid progression through important base skills is going to be a hindrance if she sticks with this sport long-term.
I don't mean to suggest that all girls getting low AA scores don't belong in level 5, some kids just compete much better than others and some kids just miss the little elements crucial to big scores in the compulsory levels, things that are probably not going to make much of an impact in long run. I just mean those kids who are being spotted on multiple skills (both kips) might want to rethink competing that level. I will also admit that mental blocks are a totally different ballgame, and typically those kids are fully capable of performing the skills, meaning there really is no reason to hold them back.

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

at my DD's gym the kip is also the gatekeeper to level 5. They actually have a kip test and once you pass you move to L5. The test consists of 4 low bar kips, squat on, jump to the high bar and a high bar kip. It can be frustrating for some girls who struggle with the kip and a couple of girls had issues jumping to the high bar so it took them a LOOOOONNNGG time to pass it.

 

[UnoMas]

We had a few girls on our gym's L5 team who "had" their kips, but they were muscle-up kips (does this make sense?). Those girls were in the low 7's on bars all year...and they were not technically "missing" the kips. None of our 5's were actually missing the kips. However, our gym moves up pretty much only on the basis of 36AA at the previous level (in this case, L4). So, we could have girls on our L5 team missing kips. I think that moving up a level should be based on having skills for that level (see my thread on my little DD who is struggling with L4 bars). Competing a level without the skills just doesn't seem quite right.

 

[jasminekayla]

Up until now, our level 4's never worked on Kips, so the girls came to 5 not even knowing a thing. My daughter was level 5 this year and learned her kip through out the season. But the girls learn it mostly in 5. Starting next season level 4 will start working on the kip in the off season. Since the kip is one of the hardest things to do it does take time and if moving levels was dependent on the kip I dont honestly think many girls would move on. I know my daughter wouldnt instead she knows bars will hurt her AA so she works on perfecting the other 3 events to make up on the lost of points if she doesnt get her kip.

 

[nevertooold]

Direct quote from the athlete membership form that every competitor and their parent signs:

"Prior to participation in USA Gymnastics events, I will have practiced my exercises, And will perform only those exercises which I have accomplished to the degree of confidence necessary to assure I can perform them by myself, without injury."

Clearly the expectation is that the athlete can independently perform all skills in a given level and has practiced them.

 

[Panda-girl's Mom]

I think it depends on the situation. A lot of girls get their kip during the season. I think ecspecailly if a girl is older starting out why make them compete level 4 with younger kids if they have all their other skills. After all it is only level 5 what is the harm in trying to give them incentive to get the skills during the season so what if they have to scratch bars at the first few meets. At daughters gym I have seen all the girls who have moved up get their kip by the middle of the season. If the gym is training properly most should be able to get the skill by the end of the season. I think particularly an older child who is just starting out competing would rather do the level5 routines missing one or 2 skills with girls closer to their own age then be competing with a bunch of 6 or 7 year olds. Also what about the gymnast who gets their kip moves up then loses it.

 

[3rd_time_around]

IMO yes they could. What if they have all the other requirements- maybe even bonuses- and they're beautiful skills, just a non-existant kip? I even seen a girl place without a kip, she placed 6th! That happened to a friend of mine, and she ended up placing on bars, and her all-around was 3rd- and she was missing her kips. It just all depends. Now if you had a girl who was missing many requirements, she'd repeat.

well, there's no bonuses in compulsories, so there's no way to make it up.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Direct quote from the athlete membership form that every competitor and their parent signs:

"Prior to participation in USA Gymnastics events, I will have practiced my exercises, And will perform only those exercises which I have accomplished to the degree of confidence necessary to assure I can perform them by myself, without injury."

Clearly the expectation is that the athlete can independently perform all skills in a given level and has practiced them.

this is the way it is for most gyms. ^^^ any other way is a disservice to the athlete and sport and sets them up for future failure. that's all i will say on this topic.