Making daughter quit for lack of improvement?

[Pickle's Mom]

It’s clear you and your husband have the best interests of your daughter and your entire family at heart, but I encourage you to rethink how you are attempting to motivate her. Two things come to mind:

1. Everything you are doing is a “stickâ€￾ and not a “carrotâ€￾. This is incredibly de-motivational for kids this age. Instead of thinking “if I do something well I get a rewardâ€￾ they just worry about the punishment of not succeeding.

2. Scores are an often abstract concept to work towards. A 9.x doesn’t come from thin air. It comes from achieving specific skills. Rather than motivating her towards scores, think about ways to reward for achieving specific skills (or better form on skills she already has).

I admit that I have occasionally rewarded (cough – bribed – cough) Pickle when I thought it would help her. Usually it’s when she’s dealing with fears or frustrations. For example, over the summer she was saving up for a kind of pricey astronomy book and at the same time she had lost of BWO on beam. I told her I would buy the book for her if she did 5 BWOs in a row on the high beam without balking. It took her 4 workouts to get it. I knew she was capable of this. She was just letting her fears get to her. Having a specific, tangible, achievable goal to work towards with a reward at the end helped her to get past it.

Most recently I promised her that if she did her full L6 bar routine connecting all skills and casting above horizontal on all casts, I would make her bed for her for a week.

Guess how long it took for her to get it?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

bwhahahaha...probably 'yesterday'?

 

[MarR99]

This would be why your fees are so high...most gyms have huge rec programs where the gymnasts in those pay 15 bucks an hour for a 1 hour class( and there are hundreds of kids in rec classes) versus team girls (usually a team maxes out at between 50-100 girls) that pay around 4-6 bucks an hour ...it's like the minnows support the sharks ...but if all you have are sharks then the bills will be higher...

Yes. Our old gym was that way. It was actually a great thing because I think it did subsidize the competitive team's costs. At first this gym did not seem that much more but they have an amazing way of asking for a little here, then a little more there and so on and when I punch the numbers I am shocked how much it all add up too.

We are still 100% committed to our little gymmie if she brings it the next two meets (as expensive as it is). She is working a little harder so we'll see how it goes. I hope she can manage to put it all together in some ways. But, then I do think she is on the fence herself so maybe we will just see how it all turns out and trust that it is for the best.

 

[MarR99]

To clarify, our gym does has some rec programs I guess. They have a cheer class, tumbling class and open it up for little ones to take classes. However, it is not the main money making part of our gym at all. It is mostly just team.

 

[Blackie6]

I have a 10 yr old L6/7 and we would LOVE your dd's 34 or 35AA score! My daughter has always struggled and repeated L4 & 5 twice, but she wouldn't quit for anything and we have never made her gymnastics all about the score. I do feel your frustration with the financial & family committment though. I have 2 sons involved in their own intense activities (baseball, wrestling, music, drama, ect...) and the running around and writting of checks gets to me too! However, I have to say my choice of gym fits our expectations. They are competative in relation to other gyms, yet more of a family/laid back appraoch. There are many gyms in the area known for their excessive hours, tuitions, meet/coaches fees, competative leo/warm-up fees, ect...and my dd probably would not be happy there, she just wants to do gymnastics not train for the Olympics. Is it possible that this gym your dd is at is not a good fit for her & your family, even though she is having a good time? Maybe that 34/35AA is a low score at the gym you are at now, but maybe another gym down the road with smaller team, more rec kids, less expenses might be a better choice to allow her to stay in USAG? Or, is she still loves gym, maybe a different program like USAIGC? Something less expensive, less meets, less tuition? And of course I am sure people have responded to you that scores in compulsary level are never true indication of how they will do in optionals. There are just so many factors! Maybe your hubby was just thinking that leaving the old gym and moving her to one that sounds "better" on paper with known elite girls and well known program was going to be expensive but acceptable as long as she showed more sucess? Maybe sit down with her and ask her what she wants to do, and if it is a finacial burden and causing familiy issues, instead of quitting, come up with an alternative gym or program. Whatever you decide to do please don't make it about her scores and lack of what you see as improvement, even though she is happy & having fun, it is still alot of work for them and sometimes they are doing all they can..it doesn't always come easy for some but it doesn't mean theya re not dedicated. Good luck!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

^^^ did you get "Grenade Whistle" from jersey shore? or do you live near a military base? just curious.

 

[SuperGirlmlm]

I'm 13 and level seven, close to eight. If she's having fun, don't make her quit. My mom made me quit all my other sports, soccer and golf if I wanted to stay in gymnastics. Then, she made me pay for pre-wrap, tape, grips and Tiger Paws. I haven't spent $1 on anything else other than gymnastics related. It took me two years to pass level six as well. Just NEVER put un-nessesary pressure on her, it only makes the scores worse.

 

[Mack_the_Ripper]

If there are financial concerns, you might try a lower-commitment program such as Prep Op or Xcel. A friend of mine and her sister were competing level 7, but once it became clear neither of them were talented enough for a college scholarship, and their family lost their only source of income, it just wasn't practical for them to keep competing USAG. We have an Xcel program which is much fewer hours, so the older girl can work, and probably more in tune with their goals and resources.

 

[Gymmonkeymomma]

Seems like you've gotten a ton of advice/suggestions above...
I don't really have much to add, but maybe to relate my big DD's 'story'. She was a good Level 4, a very good L5 (6thAA in a competitive age group at States), an OK L6, but clearly scores were dropping...around this time she started questioning how much she "liked" gymnastics and competing, dropping still through levels 7 and 8. By her 2nd year of L8 (age 13) she was in the very low 30's. During this time, she didn't want to change gyms b/c of friends, didn't want to leave gymnastics because of friends, didn't "like" any other sport as much as she "liked" gymnastics etc. These were her reasons. Even though she didn't LOVE gymnastics and people asked why we didn't "make her quit", DD was learning other things that maybe were not as clear to her - like the discipline that a gymnast has in order to be able to juggle the demands of hours in the gym and keeping up her grades in school. She worked hard (and sometimes not so hard), having to re-learn skills as she hit puberty and her body changed, having to deal with her little sister coming up behind her. Even when she was struggling with skills and joking about her "low" scores, she was still gaining self-confidence of knowing she had skills that very few people have. We juggled family time, finances of paying gym expenses for 2 and our son's travel soccer, etc. Rather than "making her quit" we allowed it to be her decision, which ultimately took over a year (in that last year she switched to JOGA which is a much less demanding program). In the meantime, DD learned "life lessons" that she would probably not get elsewhere. So..the moral of this story....lol...it was never about the score or even the improvements (or lack of), it was about all the other benefits of gymnastics.

 

[MarR99]

it was never about the score or even the improvements (or lack of), it was about all the other benefits of gymnastics.

I have been mentioning this to DH, the fact that there are so many other benefits to gymnastics, but DH says that he in only willing to invest the kind of money required at this point if dd is slightly improving and showing growth. (I know that "growth" is a difficult word here and we have discussed that too) He says that if the sport she was in was soccer, or any other sport for that matter, that did not require as much sacrifice for the entire family it would be a non-issue and he would be more than happy to continue to support her even if she was not improving or not even good at it. I know it seems so harsh when I put that up here on the board, but I really can't argue with his logic. Sure she is enjoying being with her friends, gaining exercise, some self-esteem etc. But the family is losing nice family vacations, time together as a family (which can build self-esteem too) and is creating a higher level of stress all-around for all family members due to financial strains, too much driving, etc. Also, dd has many other talents and makes friends very easily so that is not as much of a concern that it might be for a child that doesn't. So, I guess it is a matter of weighing all of the pros and cons and making a decision for the family that is best for us.

Should we make it all about the scores? Well, I think it might be a good life lesson for dd to realize that even if it is unfair to quit because of judging or whatever other reason, performance matters in this world and if the "grade" isn't made, the class is failed. I think sometimes we protect our children from consequences too much. IMHO

 

[MdGymMom01]

But the family is losing nice family vacations, time together as a family (which can build self-esteem too) and is creating a higher level of stress all-around for all family members due to financial strains, too much driving, etc. Also, dd has many other talents and makes friends very easily so that is not as much of a concern that it might be for a child that doesn't.

^^^^^^^^^^I think you pretty much have your answer right there.


As for the following, "Well, I think it might be a good life lesson for dd to realize that even if it is unfair to quit because of judging or whatever other reason, performance matters in this world and if the "grade" isn't made, the class is failed."...
I think you are putting WAY TOO MUCH PRESSURE on performance, the scores and judging. It doesn't have to be "all or nothing" or "pass or fail". Yes, gymnastics is a very subjective sport and it can be very unfair, but that is the nature of the beast when you are in a subjective sport. And there is SO MUCH MORE to gymnastics than showing progress, gaining skills, and winning medals. It seems like you and your dh are missing a very important part of what gymnastics is all about. And sometimes gymnasts learn the most from the sport when they are struggling the most.

 

[cher062]

I have been mentioning this to DH, the fact that there are so many other benefits to gymnastics, but DH says that he in only willing to invest the kind of money required at this point if dd is slightly improving and showing growth. (I know that "growth" is a difficult word here and we have discussed that too) He says that if the sport she was in was soccer, or any other sport for that matter, that did not require as much sacrifice for the entire family it would be a non-issue and he would be more than happy to continue to support her even if she was not improving or not even good at it. I know it seems so harsh when I put that up here on the board, but I really can't argue with his logic. Sure she is enjoying being with her friends, gaining exercise, some self-esteem etc. But the family is losing nice family vacations, time together as a family (which can build self-esteem too) and is creating a higher level of stress all-around for all family members due to financial strains, too much driving, etc. Also, dd has many other talents and makes friends very easily so that is not as much of a concern that it might be for a child that doesn't. So, I guess it is a matter of weighing all of the pros and cons and making a decision for the family that is best for us.

Should we make it all about the scores? Well, I think it might be a good life lesson for dd to realize that even if it is unfair to quit because of judging or whatever other reason, performance matters in this world and if the "grade" isn't made, the class is failed. I think sometimes we protect our children from consequences too much. IMHO

Ok the bold part above is your real reason for wanting her to quit. This is going to sound harsh and I don't mean it to be but It really doens't have anything to do with improvement scores etc. so why make it about that? It sounds like your trying to have an excuse to justify having her leave other than "Dad and I want you home more and do more family things so you have to quit"

Why make the reason about her failing and make it about what it really is - You and Dad don't want to spend the time or money for her to continue.

There is a cheaper and significanly less expensive optioin that many of us have mentioned here the Prep-op or Excel program offered by USAG. If your current gym doesn't have it check around it will allow her to compete keep up the benifits of gymnastics and allow her to excel all while requiring less time and money thus meeting your Hubbys request for more family time and less gymnastics time. Alot of girls go this route when its time to consider the expense and time commitment of Optional. I think if you check it out you will see it meets everyones wants without making her quit.

Other than that I think all the bases have been covered at this point and now you must decide if you are going to make her reason for quiting an excuse of her score and improvement or what it really is - parents tired of competitve gymnastic lifestyle.

 

[MarR99]

Why make the reason about her failing and make it about what it really is - You and Dad don't want to spend the time or money for her to continue.

Well, she has not failed yet. She has two meets to raise her scores up. DH said if she improves these last two meets he will let her continue. Her average this year, compared to last years scores on floor and vault will probably still fall below last years average regardless, but DH said at least there will be signs of effort.

I think DH really wants this to be a learning experience and not simply "we don't have money to invest in your talent anymore. sorry." I guess I am really surprised so many people think that it is wrong to say to dd "if you accomplish X then you get Y" especially when we are committed to doing that for her. DD is competing the same level. It has been a year. DH is only asking for a .250 improvement averaged out per event over all the meets this year. (as of now she is doing worse on floor and vault by almost .1) I would think that is totally reasonable to expect that. Yes there are many variables to consider but coaches expect that kind of improvement too don't they? I wouldn't be surprised if this gym asked her to repeat level 6 for the third year at this point. Would it be OK to say that we are done then? When does it become OK to tell your child that they are not able to continue with something because they are not improving at it?

When I was 8 my music teacher told my mom that lessons were waste of her time and money for me, why? I was not improving (I was not practicing consistently and was not really motivated). So, my mom stopped paying for music lessons. A couple of years later I decided I wanted to become really good at playing piano so what happened? My mom let me try again. This time, I was highly motivated and I still play piano to this day. So, I think sometimes making the child accountable is a good thing.

 

[cher062]

Well, she has not failed yet. She has two meets to raise her scores up. DH said if she improves these last two meets he will let her continue. Her average this year, compared to last years scores on floor and vault will probably still fall below last years average regardless, but DH said at least there will be signs of effort.

I think DH really wants this to be a learning experience and not simply "we don't have money to invest in your talent anymore. sorry." I guess I am really surprised so many people think that it is wrong to say to dd "if you accomplish X then you get Y" especially when we are committed to doing that for her. DD is competing the same level. It has been a year. DH is only asking for a .250 improvement averaged out per event over all the meets this year. (as of now she is doing worse on floor and vault by almost .1) I would think that is totally reasonable to expect that. Yes there are many variables to consider but coaches expect that kind of improvement too don't they? I wouldn't be surprised if this gym asked her to repeat level 6 for the third year at this point. Would it be OK to say that we are done then? When does it become OK to tell your child that they are not able to continue with something because they are not improving at it?

When I was 8 my music teacher told my mom that lessons were waste of her time and money for me, why? I was not improving (I was not practicing consistently and was not really motivated). So, my mom stopped paying for music lessons. A couple of years later I decided I wanted to become really good at playing piano so what happened? My mom let me try again. This time, I was highly motivated and I still play piano to this day. So, I think sometimes making the child accountable is a good thing.

I don't think any of us have a problem with if you accomplish X then you get Y, but based on your posts that isn't the real reason you want her to quit. Scores are just Sooooo subjective and really don't mean a darn. You get a crabby judge at a meet and a floor routine that should get a 9.3 ends up with a 8.7 I don't think scores should be the end all as to can you continue or not.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Well, she has not failed yet. She has two meets to raise her scores up. DH said if she improves these last two meets he will let her continue. Her average this year, compared to last years scores on floor and vault will probably still fall below last years average regardless, but DH said at least there will be signs of effort.

I think DH really wants this to be a learning experience and not simply "we don't have money to invest in your talent anymore. sorry." I guess I am really surprised so many people think that it is wrong to say to dd "if you accomplish X then you get Y" especially when we are committed to doing that for her. DD is competing the same level. It has been a year. DH is only asking for a .250 improvement averaged out per event over all the meets this year. (as of now she is doing worse on floor and vault by almost .1) I would think that is totally reasonable to expect that. Yes there are many variables to consider but coaches expect that kind of improvement too don't they? I wouldn't be surprised if this gym asked her to repeat level 6 for the third year at this point. Would it be OK to say that we are done then? When does it become OK to tell your child that they are not able to continue with something because they are not improving at it?

When I was 8 my music teacher told my mom that lessons were waste of her time and money for me, why? I was not improving (I was not practicing consistently and was not really motivated). So, my mom stopped paying for music lessons. A couple of years later I decided I wanted to become really good at playing piano so what happened? My mom let me try again. This time, I was highly motivated and I still play piano to this day. So, I think sometimes making the child accountable is a good thing.

here's the problem. it's like when people say that it's not worth doing gymnastics unless you're going to the olympics or getting a scholarship. or whatever.

the system is based on an imperfect system. subjective=human judges=imperfection. the entire sport is based on negative consequences to eventually come to a positive outcome. and that positive outcome and whether it is worth it or not, and the pursuit therein, is left to the beholder.

i would never place a gymnast's improvement or progress on the scores that are dictated by imperfect humans in an imperfect system. never. put your money on the horses...not on the .25 that you think you might get which may not happen in your husband's time frame EVEN THOUGH YOUR DAUGHTER'S GYMNASTICS MAY HAVE IMPROVED.

this is just 1 of those things that become circular logic. and making the child accountable is a required tool of parenting. but comparing playing piano with gymnastics, and the motivation required is like comparing roller skating to jumping out of a plane. apples and oranges. if you have never done gymnastics, you have NO idea just how hard it is. and measurable improvement for most is like watching grass grow or paint drying. and i'll bet you never once thought about breaking bones in your body or killing yourself whilst playing the piano.

and about the motivation issue...the sport of gymnastics physically beats the crap out of you daily. but not in an abusive way. the child feels it take a toll on their emotions yet they don't know how to verbalize/communicate that. gymnastics for most is 2 steps forward and 1 step back almost every work out. as coaches, we measure progress by both. but parents should ONLY measure progress by the 2 steps forward. it takes about 7 years of training for maturity to set in. and motivation is one of the emotional maturity components which vascillate weekly.

finally, the 1st bold. did he really say that? equating your daughter's effort to a score? do you realize how unreasonable and illogical that concept is? and what is "the sign"? the score? or his satisfaction thinking he is right in that if she doesn't achieve the .25 she lacks effort that he is not qualified to measure? how on earth does he qualify or quantify this rationale? was he a gymnast?? was he even an athlete?? were you?? if he was, is he comparing what his effort or enthusiasm was to his daughter's?? sorry, this is wrong minded. and the first sentence in bold reveals your attitude as parents of an athlete. maybe it was tongue in cheek. or, you are expecting her to fail. and in the next 2 meets. so then, you are setting her up for failure based on a score in an imperfect system that you have unreasonably and inexplicably linked to her effort. wow.

if you want to pull her out cause she sucks and is miserable then do it. but don't pile on all these other illogical and unreasonable measurements & expectations when you've never walked a balance beam in her skin. that's all.

 

[cher062]

Dunno I think that is the most I've ever seen you type!! And I totally agree.

My DD puts lots of effort in to her gymnastics but the scores only show what a judge thought of a routine on that day not how much effort my kid put in to get those scores.

It just sounds like this mom and dad want a reason that they can blame on thier kid rather than just facing the truth that they have had enough of the whole gymnastic thing if she isn't going to win.

 

[gymcoach26]

Wow so many replies here! I think you have gotten some great advice and you seem to already have your mind made up, but I would like to give an example.

My younger sister is in the prep op program and has competed a cartwheel on beam for the past 2 years. This year she has changed it to a back walkover. I think we all can agree that a back walkover on beam is harder than a cartwheel, so that shows improvement... well her beam scores have been worse this year. In no way would I ever even think about telling her she is doing worse- because SHE'S NOT! To a mathematician looking in only at the numbers, I'm sure that's how it appears, but to some one educated about gymnastics it's obvious she has overcome a huge fear, put a lot of effort and time into this, and is having fun doing so, all while getting better.

An average of .1 or .25 is honestly nothing. When giving my girls feedback we do not even discuss this. I look at things such as did you smile and have showmanship during your floor routine, did you fight harder to stay on the beam after the turn, was your bar routine connected. If I can answer yes, then I know they have improved, even if they received half a point less in score then the last meet. Maybe an improvement was made in one area, but there was a mistake in another area. Scores will not reflect that. Should we just ignore the improvement then because the score doesn't show it?

 

[Kiwi]

Well, I think it might be a good life lesson for dd to realize that even if it is unfair to quit because of judging or whatever other reason, performance matters in this world and if the "grade" isn't made, the class is failed. I think sometimes we protect our children from consequences too much. IMHO

I'm failing to see the good life lesson here. You are teaching that if you fail to live up to someone else's expectations, you should just quit on something you really wanted to do... Personally, I hope my DD continues in gymnastics because of all the other great life lessons. How to be disciplined and work hard at something, how to chip away at difficult tasks that may seem impossible at first, how to persevere when you are struggling to overcome obstacles, how to get up and keep going when you fall, how to not get too down on yourself when you make a mistake, how to be proud of yourself for your effort even when you don't perform perfectly.

Scores can vary for no apparent reason. This year my DD scored 12.8 for floor in her first competition of the season. It wasn't a bad routine, but her second cartwheel was kind of crooked and she didn't connect her two half turns. In the next two competitions she did nice routines and scored 13.3 and 13.2. In her last competition she did a very nice routine and scored 12.8 again for a much better routine than the first one. Different judges, maybe focusing on different things... Her beam score at the last competition stayed the same as at the previous competition even though she did a better routine. If you want to know whether your DD is improving I think you'd be better to ask her coaches rather than rely on scores.

 

[ivyagogo]

I didn't read this entire thread, but how important is competing for her? Is it an option to join a school team? The gym I coach at is only a Rec gym, but we work closely with all the surrounding high school teams. We have a few girls who have left the high stress of team gymnastics and just work a few hours a week with us and will do varsity gymnastics when they are old enough. It would certainly lead to more family time, less money, and less stress.

Not for everyone, but an option to throw out there.

 

[MarR99]

I don't think any of us have a problem with if you accomplish X then you get Y, but based on your posts that isn't the real reason you want her to quit. Scores are just Sooooo subjective and really don't mean a darn. You get a crabby judge at a meet and a floor routine that should get a 9.3 ends up with a 8.7 I don't think scores should be the end all as to can you continue or not.

We know scores are subjective. That is why DH wanted to base the decision on the average of the scores of all the meets this season, not just one or two meets. Usually our judges here in So Cal have been really good though. I have felt that all of dd's scores have been fair. Having watched a good amount of gymnastics to this point, we are getting to the point where we know what the score is going to be before it is even posted most of the time. The only exception for us has been her beam score. She has been scoring higher than we expected since she has many wobbles but I guess she has been nailing the main elements.

Also, he said last night DH said that he is not holding her to a specific "improvement" (the exact .250) but that was a good number to shoot for though since there could be a margin of error either way.

I guess what is not coming across is that we truly love dd and want what is best for her. We have been proud of her accomplishments so far. But I want her to thrive at something, not just be "mediocre." (please don't bother posting why it is OK for her to be mediocre. I know not every girl can "win" but maybe it is time to move on to something else that she can have more success at. I know "success" is a big word here but lets face it, a good portion of success at gymnastics is about getting medals and good scores. It is not necessarily a part I like either but that is the way a judged sport is) I have seen other parents in our same situation. Their daughter repeated the same level, the dd's scores did not improve by much. The parents get frustrated, the dd almost always quits since they get frustrated with themselves too. (we are just forcing the decision a little early in this case) I am sure that there are many exceptions to this, but this seems to be a common occurrence from the other gymnasts I have observed up till now.

DD said she in not mad at us for giving her this standard. She says that she understands. She is going to try her best the next two meets and then we will see what happens. What if she is glad that even she has a requirement she has to meet to keep going? When is it OK to have an exit strategy? Do any of you have a standard that your dd has to live up to in order to continue? What would it take for you to pull out dd? I feel like I am being told that as long as dd wants to do gymnastics, let her do it regardless of anything else, unless the money is too much. That seems to be an acceptable reason to make her quit on here for some reason. Some of you have said to tell DD that we don't have the money to pay for it. That would be lying to dd though. It is NOT about the money, because we would be willing to keep paying the money, IF she was improving just a little. So, it is about improving then isn't it?

I was just hoping to open up a discussion here, without feeling judged but I guess I have hit a sensitive nerve and I am feeling a little condemned by some of you.