WAG Not sandbagging, but...

[Deleted member 18037]

perfect execution and difficult skills being weighted and benefitting the athlete.
[/QUOTE]

[USER=20599]@John from L8 on difficult skills are taken into consideration. That’s not my opinion. It’s part of scores

 

[Ty’s Dad]

Pretty sure some of these skills are not allowed at the levels you listed. Level 8s can only do 1 restricted C acro on beam, and you list 2; level 9 you list 2 Ds and an E for beam, and they can only do 1 restricted D/E acro; the restricted D/E goes for bars and floor as well and restricted C acros for level 8 are also limited to 1 per event. I think there may be a misunderstanding about the skills that are performed at level 9 there.

Personally, I wouldn’t have her score out of 8, as it’s a HUGE jump to 9 and 9 is crazy. We had a phenomenal gymnast who was on the state team for level 6 and 7; she scored out of 8 and struggled so much at 9 for most of the season. Level 9 is hard! I won’t sugarcoat it. My own dd was the alternate for Easterns her first year of 9 and still repeated 9. Wherever she goes, you want her to be safe and able to perform her skills safely and successfully.

I don’t know what all the A,BC skills are. I just know what the levels 7-10 do in their routines

 

[duyetanh]

@Deleted member 18037 opinions besides your own have validity in this world. My point is not about sloppy gymnastics versus well executed gymnastics but perfect execution and difficult skills being weighted and benefitting the athlete.

I am so grateful that they don’t. It’s a long road to level ten, and some choose to go it different ways. They should not be penalized for this, if they are up to level. It’s what optionals are all about.

 

[skschlag]

I am so grateful that they don’t. It’s a long road to level ten, and some choose to go it different ways. They should not be penalized for this, if they are up to level. It’s what optionals are all about.

This would be very much like the men's program........

 

[GymMom4]

Of course there are. But just because there is a kid competing with high scores, and even possibly repeating that level, does NOT always mean it's sandbagging. You cannot tell just by scores if that kid was ready to compete the next level or not, skill-wise. You can't tell by the scores of L6 whether or not a girl can do a giant for L7 (the gym may REQUIRE a giant), nor a connection or flight on beam. If a girl would have to scratch two events, that really is a pretty strong argument for repeating.

I don't think anyone is pretending it doesn't happen, just that you can't always tell for sure without knowing TRULY what's going on at that gym, and also with the girl.

You are absolutely right. My daughter competed level 7 at our old gym. We switched and they wanted her to repeat 7 because she had a lot of work to do to get her basics up to par because she wasn’t really ready to compete 7 the first time. She did well repeating 7. Then she got hurt last summer and lost a lot of training time (for vault and bars, especially) and lost some other skills. The decision was made to have her compete 7 to regain confidence and get her other skills back. The old gym may think it’s sandbagging but in reality it was either compete 7 or not compete at all because she was not ready on any event to compete 8.

It’s hard to know what is really going on unless you are involved in the situation.

 

[Ty’s Dad]

What do you mean the Level 8 and Level 9 Vault is the same?
There isn't a single Level 8 vault that has a 10.0 SV at Level 9 (I just checked to be sure).
And would the gym have allowed her to move up to 8 AFTER seeing how well she was doing at 7? Because she would have had to score out of 7 anyways.
At our gym, if a girl does well enough and can compete the next level safely, they get the option to move up. I know some gyms won't let gymnasts move up mid-season, but some do.

These are level 8 girls from my daughters gym that’s doing their vaults. Now what’s really different from level 9

 

[Ty’s Dad]

It won’t let me post the video

 

[gymbeam]

It won’t let me post the video

Level 8 they yurchenko pike for 10.0 value and level 9 needs to be layout. So not a huge difference but is different.

 

[Ty’s Dad]

Level 8 they yurchenko pike for 10.0 value and level 9 needs to be layout. So not a huge difference but is different.

Thank you

 

[Ty’s Dad]

Level 8 they yurchenko pike for 10.0 value and level 9 needs to be layout. So not a huge difference but is different.

But they can still do a pike for 9 right?

 

[beachgirl]

The pike starts at 9.7 in L9 and the layout starts at 10.0.

 

[Ty’s Dad]

The pike starts at 9.7 in L9 and the layout starts at 10.0.

I never talked about or even knew about the SV. All I said before was level 8 and 9 vaults are the same and was told no.

 

[gymbeam]

Well, the lower start value is because it’s a level 8 vault. Sure you can do it but it’s not considered a level 9 vault really.

 

[beachgirl]

You can do anything you want at any level. You can do restricted higher level skills or not up to level skills, but just because they are done does not mean they are the skills for that level. I just depends on what your coaches will allow

 

[profmom]

Level 8 vault table: https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/Rules/J.O. Code of Points/appndx03_level6_8vaultvalues_0518.pdf
Level 9 vault table: https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/Rules/J.O. Code of Points/appndx02_Level9Vaults_0518.pdf
Level 10 vault table: https://usagym.org/PDFs/Women/Rules/J.O. Code of Points/appndx01_Level10vaultchart_0518.pdf

 

[SpunkyGymMom]

Super-interesting discussion!

Seems to me, this all boils down to differences in philosophy, right? My daughter’s old gym seemed to pride themselves on their number of higher level gymnasts. As such, girls move up levels whenever they are “close enough”, even if it means lower start values. Scores there are kind of average. My daughter’s new gym is more focused on having all the necessary skills, done well, before moving up. Therefore, girls tend to move more slowly through levels, but our teams place very well for a gym our size. If you were gym-shopping, Gym 1 would sell you on the higher number of optional girls they have and at younger ages. Gym 2’s competitive advantage is the higher placements and scores. At the end of the day, since neither gym is a powerhouse in our state, both have to figure out how they’re going to define themselves to attract new gymnasts to their programs.

I think the challenge is finding a gym with a philosophy that matches the mindset of the individual gymnast. Some girls are motivated by moving up levels - that’s their “bragging rights”, so to speak. I once saw a small-town gymnast muddle through a level 4 meet, and overheard her afterward saying how thrilled she was that she hit (barely) the minimum mobility score and could be done with L4. Maybe for these girls, it’s about wanting to compete new skills or maybe they just dread practicing routines they have mostly down pat. Either way, Gym 1 would be a better fit. On the flip side, some girls define success as winning - they want a shot at the top of the podium... they’ll be happier at Gym 2. Girls wired this way can have major mental struggles if pushed to move faster than they are comfortable - I’ve seen it happen, and watched talented girls regress or even walk away from the sport because of the stress. We need different types of gyms and different paths to suit different types of girls!

There’s so much that’s unfair in gymnastics. Big gyms with 30+ gymnasts per level competing against gyms that have 30 gymnasts total... high-hours gyms vs low-hours gyms... state-of-the-art gyms vs gyms with barely the basic equipment. There are girls competing harder skills being outscored by girls doing the bare minimum, and sometimes girls are doing way over minimum and winning it all. Just like life, it’s not fair and it never will be. We can only hope the rules are such that the sport is as fair as reasonably possible. And, as parents, I guess we can just hope to find a gym that is a good fit in terms of distance, cost, coaching style, and hopefully their competitive philosophy.

 

[raenndrops]

Seems to me, this all boils down to differences in philosophy, right? My daughter’s old gym seemed to pride themselves on their number of higher level gymnasts. As such, girls move up levels whenever they are “close enough”, even if it means lower start values. Scores there are kind of average. My daughter’s new gym is more focused on having all the necessary skills, done well, before moving up. Therefore, girls tend to move more slowly through levels, but our teams place very well for a gym our size. If you were gym-shopping, Gym 1 would sell you on the higher number of optional girls they have and at younger ages. Gym 2’s competitive advantage is the higher placements and scores.

I think the challenge is finding a gym with a philosophy that matches the mindset of the individual gymnast. Some girls are motivated by moving up levels - that’s their “bragging rights”, so to speak. On the flip side, some girls define success as winning - they want a shot at the top of the podium... they’ll be happier at Gym 2. Girls wired this way can have major mental struggles if pushed to move faster than they are comfortable - I’ve seen it happen, and watched talented girls regress or even walk away from the sport because of the stress. We need different types of gyms and different paths to suit different types of girls!

I am so happy that our gym is a combination of both philosophies. We have one girl that started competing L3 at the age of 6. She turned 7 toward the end of the season. She barely qualified for Y Nationals (32) that year. The next season, she competed Level 4. She qualified for Y Nationals again. When she was 8, she competed Level 5 because she had more of the L5 skills solid than some of the older girls we were moving up. Her dad told me at the first meet of the season that he thought she should have stayed Level 4 because she "wasn't ready" ... He said this 4 minutes before she finished her last event ... and was the only one on the L5 team to qualify for Y Nationals at the first meet. He had walked out before her score flashed. I went out and told him that she qualified and he was shocked. This past season, she competed Level 6. She has had her best scores to date and she will most likely be a Level 7 next year at 10 years old (may sound old to some, but that is the youngest we have ever had at L7 - our current L7s are both in high school).
We also have gymnasts that have chosen to repeat levels (or stay at a single level all season even though they are given the chance to move up mid-season) to score and place better before moving on.
It is all about what works for the individual gymnast. This way, there is no need to switch gyms to get what the gymnast needs

 

[SpunkyGymMom]

We also have gymnasts that have chosen to repeat levels (or stay at a single level all season even though they are given the chance to move up mid-season) to score and place better before moving on.
It is all about what works for the individual gymnast. This way, there is no need to switch gyms to get what the gymnast needs

Love this!
Ideally, coaches should know their gymnasts - with respect to talent and motivation - and be flexible in terms of their paths. Even though our current gym is more conservative with move-up decisions, they don’t seem to do it just for scores. We have lower-scoring gymnasts that move up if they can perform the required skills safely and consistently. I’m not sure what goes into those decisions, but I like to think they consider what’s best for the individual gymnast ahead of what “looks good”for the gym.