WAG Not sandbagging, but...

[Deleted member 18037]

Well my daughter is a level 7, but we get all the time why is she in this level and it’s not fair etc. But we came from another gym and was given the option to either do level 7 and make sure all of her skills are right while training level 9 or go level 8 and scratch vault most or all of the season. So my daughter make the decision to just do level 7 this year. She just finished states and got a mid 38 and made state team. But sometimes it’s not that the gyms are sandbagging sometime they just want to make sure the gymnast is ready to move on

So the decision was made to stay in a level where she would score higher.

She could of done L8 quite successfully with the exception of vault.

That has nothing to do with training L9. Training L9 was going to happen either way. The decision was made solely on where she would score better.

 

[profmom]

Many many many gyms will not move a girl to L8 until she can flip a vault. That decision is completely independent of scoring potential at either level.

Around 5 years ago, my kids' gym had a girl win floor at L9 nationals as a third-year L9. The coaches would not move her up to L10 until she got her beam series. They didn't hold her back so that she could win floor and vault at L9. Everyone would have preferred that she move to L10. Optionals is a different ballgame.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

.That decision is completely independent of scoring potential at either level.

Optionals is a different ballgame.

Of course scoring can be a factor. And for many gyms scoring is a factor.

Many things factor in to what level a gymmie competes. Including where they will be most successful. Most successful usually translates into best scores.

I understand the ballgame that is optionals.

My L8 child is not consistently flipping her vault. Others on her team with the same issue. Couple including my kid would of likely made regionals staying 7. They did 8 and will be second year 8s. All safe. All except my injured one qualified for states. None scoring 38s this year. Who knows about next year.

Some meets they flipped vaults and scored OK. Some weeks they downgraded their vault and their vault score took a hit. They medaled in other events.

If you are staying 2 levels back until you are ready for 2 levels up. IE 7 until 9 ready. Of course scores are a factor.

 

[profmom]

Not every gym does things the way your gym does things, LDW. Many gyms, including gyms against which your team routinely competes, do not advance a girl to L8 until she can flip a vault consistently and successfully, do not advance a girl to L9 until she has a consistent C, and do not advance a girl to L10 until she has an acceptable beam series by their standards. These gyms will advance girls who are getting lower scores at L7, L8, and L9 if they meet the requirements. They would prefer to see them scoring 35s at L9 with full value routines to scoring 37s at L8. It is most definitely not about "staying at a level where she can score higher." Most gyms that have these kinds of skill-based bars to move ups are aiming their girls toward being successful L10s, and they would much rather have them reach L10 than win L8.

 

[skschlag]

It is not sandbagging to make sure a kiddo is successful at the next level. It is safe! Why push a kiddo to a level where you KNOW they do not have the skills? I do not understand that.

maybe because I have a boy and their levels are not determined by scores. our gym has a philosophy for ALL teams that kids compete where they will be successful. Not necessarily win everything but they do not move gymnasts up just to say that they are a certain level.

When my son got there, they moved him from 9 to JD (more of an open division) because he was not doing well at 9 the year before because he did not have the form or the skills. he competed this level, and yes, won every meet. Moved up to 9 mid season and made nationals. he was also kept at L5 for a 3rd year due to his inability to do high bar. Yes, he was doing well on the other 5 events, but moving on to L6 with his high bar could have easily led to him quitting.

Another girl stayed at 8 a 2nd year, despite a very successful first season at 8 due to a block on back tumbling. They are working through it, but I am sure to the outsider, it looks like sandbagging.

One of D's teammates stayed at 6 this year because he was not old enough for 8 and would have been the only 7. That was his choice.

Every gym has requirements, and while we may not agree with them, they can fully explain their reasoning. And many of those are skill based, even though to an outside observer, they look score based. (and yes, some do have score basis). But most are aiming for successful gymnasts, and have a path or philosophy that works for them.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Not every gym does things the way your gym does things, LDW. Many gyms, including gyms against which your team routinely competes, do not advance a girl to L8 until she can flip a vault consistently and successfully, do not advance a girl to L9 until she has a consistent C, and do not advance a girl to L10 until she has an acceptable beam series by their standards. These gyms will advance girls who are getting lower scores at L7, L8, and L9 if they meet the requirements. They would prefer to see them scoring 35s at L9 with full value routines to scoring 37s at L8. It is most definitely not about "staying at a level where she can score higher." Most gyms that have these kinds of skill-based bars to move ups are aiming their girls toward being successful L10s, and they would much rather have them reach L10 than win L8.

I understand all that. Really it wasn’t necessary to explain it. AND there are also gyms that will hold gymmies back to score better.

You can up train no matter what level you compete at. Our gym is working L9 skills. And they will not be doing L7.

I get gyms do things differently.

And I get doing the skills and being able to get to the highest level you are capable of is the goal. It is part of our coaches philosophy and they have been very clear about it at everything parent meeting I’ve been at since L2.

AND there are gyms who keep kids at a level for scores.

Yes not every gym does it the way our gym does it. Yes there are other ways. And one of those ways are keeping kids back for scores. Of course it happens. It’s naive at best to think it doesn’t

 

[Deleted member 18037]

It is not sandbagging to make sure a kiddo is successful at the next level.

Correct

It is sandbagging when you keep a kid at a lower level. Who has the skills for a level up so they can score 38s. Instead of 36s at the next level.

It is not sandbagging to make sure a kiddo is successful at the next level. It is safe!

Sandbagging, successful and safe are all different things.

Our L8s were scoring close to 35s by end of the season. All safe. All clearly with room for improvement and an upgrade of skills which is why they will be second year 8s.

Again, quite safe, our gym will not let them do skills if they feel they can’t do them safely.

Successful, depends on your POV.

 

[Ty’s Dad]

So the decision was made to stay in a level where she would score higher.

She could of done L8 quite successfully with the exception of vault.

That has nothing to do with training L9. Training L9 was going to happen either way. The decision was made solely on where she would score better.

She was coming from level 6 so we really didn’t know how she would score, I mean I knew she wouldn’t be in last but I didn’t know she would basically kill every meet. I do understand where some parents get mad because it’s not fair sometimes, but with my daughter we really didn’t have a choice, it was either go 7 and get your confidence up for 9 or skip 7 and prob not have your best meet scores and prob repeat 8.

 

[gymbeam]

She was coming from level 6 ......but with my daughter we really didn’t have a choice, it was either go 7 and get your confidence up for 9 or skip 7 and prob not have your best meet scores and prob repeat 8.

I don’t have an opinion on what level she should have competed- so no judgement here. Without being involved in the situation it’s really impossible to make judgment on that, IMO.

But I do have a question: Why do you think if she had moved to 8 she would have to repeat it? Do you mean in case she doesn’t make 9?

 

[Ty’s Dad]

I don’t have an opinion on what level she should have competed- so no judgement here. Without being involved in the situation it’s really impossible to make judgment on that, IMO.

But I do have a question: Why do you think if she had moved to 8 she would have to repeat it? Do you mean in case she doesn’t make 9?

Our gym has REALLY high standards, all the level 7-10 girls average a high 37-mid 38 at every meet and with my daughter coming from another gym getting a 34 was great. So i didn’t know what to expect and was basically told if you get low scores you might have to repeat that level.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

She was coming from level 6 so we really didn’t know how she would score, I mean I knew she wouldn’t be in last but I didn’t know she would basically kill every meet. I do understand where some parents get mad because it’s not fair sometimes, but with my daughter we really didn’t have a choice, it was either go 7 and get your confidence up for 9 or skip 7 and prob not have your best meet scores and prob repeat 8.

Clearly your daughter is a talented gymnast.

However your argument about not having a choice doesn't play.

So she does L7, scoring well, L8 (assuming she will score well and also assuming her L8 skills are pretty much ready to go), all the while up training 9....... then L9

My kid. Does L8 safely but with minimum skills doesn't score as well as your daughter. Repeats L8 scores well with upgraded skills, all the while up training 9..... then does 9.

They both get to 9. Baring no injuries, blocks, life changes etc....

There is no judgement about fairness from me. Its not about what anyone thinks as is fair. Its about what is allowed. And for me there is nothing to "mad" about. My kid is at a gym that works for us. We very much stay in our lane. She is about personal improvement. Folks around here have told me my kid would never make it optionals because she doesn't do enough hours. She is L8 training L9 skills. She might even have a shot a regionals if she stays healthy. I have no doubt she could score better with a more intense training experience. Not her thing.

And there are gyms who purposely hold gymmies back who are more then capable of competing a higher level to score higher. When you have groups of gymmies at the same gym capable of the higher level skills but you don't move them until they can score 38s as opposed to 36. And when you do that with pretty much all the kids. Its sandbagging. It happens. It's allowed. It is what it is.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Finally you can do a level safely with less then a 37.

The we didn't move them because they need a 37 to be safe. Umm no.

 

[Ty’s Dad]

Clearly your daughter is a talented gymnast.

However your argument about not having a choice doesn't play.

So she does L7, scoring well, L8 (assuming she will score well and also assuming her L8 skills are pretty much ready to go), all the while up training 9....... then L9

My kid. Does L8 safely but with minimum skills doesn't score as well as your daughter. Repeats L8 scores well with upgraded skills, all the while up training 9..... then does 9.

They both get to 9. Baring no injuries, blocks, life changes etc....

There is no judgement about fairness from me. Its not about what anyone thinks as is fair. Its about what is allowed. And for me there is nothing to "mad" about. My kid is at a gym that works for us. We very much stay in our lane. She is about personal improvement. Folks around here have told me my kid would never make it optionals because she doesn't do enough hours. She is L8 training L9 skills. She might even have a shot a regionals if she stays healthy. I have no doubt she could score better with a more intense training experience. Not her thing.

And there are gyms who purposely hold gymmies back who are more then capable of competing a higher level to score higher. When you have groups of gymmies at the same gym capable of the higher level skills but you don't move them until they can score 38s as opposed to 36. And when you do that with pretty much all the kids. Its sandbagging. It happens. It's allowed. It is what it is.

No she’s skipping 8 and going to 9

 

[gymbeam]

No she’s skipping 8 and going to 9

So you’re saying that 37+ at Level 7 will allow her to jump to 9 but if she had done 8 and not gotten above 37s they wouldn’t advance her to 9? That’s kind of odd. Seems like her actual readiness for Level 9 would weigh heavier than scores two levels below that.

 

[Ty’s Dad]

So you’re saying that 37+ at Level 7 will allow her to jump to 9 but if she had done 8 and not gotten above 37s they wouldn’t advance her to 9? That’s kind of odd. Seems like her actual readiness for Level 9 would weigh heavier than scores two levels below that.

What I’m saying is at the start of the season nobody knew how the season would go. They always train a level ahead and if she gets a good score at her intrasquad in Dec then she will go 9 l, but prob scratch I think bars if she can’t get a release

 

[Deleted member 18037]

No she’s skipping 8 and going to 9

There is no skipping.

She is scoring out of 8 going to 9.
And if she can score out of L8 and go to 9, she was quite capable of doing L8 safely and well. She was not injured. Had no blocks. No real reason not to do 8 beyond she would not scores as well.

Again the choice was made to kill it in 7 rather then have a good L8 season.

A perfect example of sandbagging.

No judgement. But if walks like a duck, talks like a duck. It’s a duck

 

[Ty’s Dad]

There is no skipping.

She is scoring out of 8 going to 9.
And if she can score out of L8 and go to 9, she was quite capable of doing L8 safely and well. She was not injured. Had no blocks. No real reason not to do 8 beyond she would not scores as well.

Again the choice was made to kill it in 7 rather then have a good L8 season.

A perfect example of sandbagging.

No judgement. But if walks like a duck, talks like a duck. It’s a duck

Soooo if your daughter went to one gym and was always last or close to last, switched gyms and was asked do you want her to go here or here. You would pick level 7 because you think it’s sandbagging? Lmfao like I said nobody knew how she would be at level 7 I knew she was good but her Gym travels to go up against the best competition. It is what it is if you think it’s sandbagging. She didn’t repeat level 7 by the way she went from 6 to 7, and I said she would have to test out of 8 to go 9

 

[skschlag]

Correct
It is sandbagging when you keep a kid at a lower level. Who has the skills for a level up so they can score 38s. Instead of 36s at the next level.

Sandbagging, successful and safe are all different things.

Our L8s were scoring close to 35s by end of the season. All safe. All clearly with room for improvement and an upgrade of skills which is why they will be second year 8s.

Again, quite safe, our gym will not let them do skills if they feel they can’t do them safely.

Successful, depends on your POV.

I do think you have to be careful assuming that because someone scored a 38 at one level that they are ready for the next. Moving 7 to 8, 8 to 9, and 9 to 10 all have big jumps. Some kids are terrified of flipping a vault, others of releases on high bar. I know kids that did not want to move up, and stayed 8s their entire career doing quite well, because they had no desire to do the bigger level skills but wanted to stay with the JO program. In addition, unless you have been in the meetings with those parents, you do not know what the story is. Maybe the kid has a back tumbling block that they want to work through while at a lower level before expecting big skills.

I am not saying that sandbagging never happens. I would not say that. I woudl say that most gyms probably have a plan in place that may differ from another gym's plan. And that is ok. And they may be L7 training L9, and that is ok. Odds are a year or half a year of 8 is planned in there, but that is their journey. We have a kid going 6 to 8 on our team next year.

I think I have just heard the term sandbagging used with my son, and other gymnasts, where there is a plan in place that might be different from expected. The outside world expected my son to do L6 that one year, and L9 the 2nd year, adn when he didn't, we were accused of holding him back so he could win. And it could not have been further from the truth. So, I just think, without firm evidence that a gym is saying "we are going to keep you at Level X because we want to win" you have to be careful about calling them out.

 

[skschlag]

Soooo if your daughter went to one gym and was always last or close to last, switched gyms and was asked do you want her to go here or here. You would pick level 7 because you think it’s sandbagging? Lmfao like I said nobody knew how she would be at level 7 I knew she was good but her Gym travels to go up against the best competition. It is what it is if you think it’s sandbagging. She didn’t repeat level 7 by the way she went from 6 to 7, and I said she would have to test out of 8 to go 9

Which is not sandbagging.....she did the levels in order....

 

[Ty’s Dad]

Which is not sandbagging.....she did the levels in order....

Exactly and thank you