WAG more black eye for college gymnastics

[tomtnt]

http://www.komu.com/news/target-8-m...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

waiting for bookworm to chime in... =)

 

[txgymfan]

I'm glad the athletes are speaking out and that the news is paying attention. Hopefully the coach will be fired and a new era of gymnastics coaching can begin.

 

[my4buffaloes]

That does not sound like a good environment at all.

 

[GymDad9.9]

I'm glad the athletes are speaking out and that the news is paying attention. Hopefully the coach will be fired and a new era of gymnastics coaching can begin.

I hope you're right but I doubt it will happen.

 

[QueenBee]

This is just one of the issues Mizzou is having right now. Their freshman enrollment has dropped from over 7,000 in 2015 to 4,000 this upcoming Fall. Sounds like they have a lot of problems...none of which are going to be addressed if they can't own up to what the problems are.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

It's hard to say guys. Kids do see things different and having both sides of course would be nice. The high dropout rate is a concern , but Kentucky also has one so who knows. Just a thought but maybe some people just don't like living in Missouri as well? I Really don't know but hate to see an article that represents one side go mainstream . The whole side story about the gymnast being told her beam could be good and then never using her is moot. Sounds like he was trying to encourage her (be a coach). And she just didn't get it done. The money thing is an issue but again we really don't know the whole story on that either. At this point who knows and I would not steer my kids away from Missouri based on this article.

 

[MILgymFAM]

It's hard to say guys. Kids do see things different and having both sides of course would be nice. The high dropout rate is a concern , but Kentucky also has one so who knows. Just a thought but maybe some people just don't like living in Missouri as well? I Really don't know but hate to see an article that represents one side go mainstream . The whole side story about the gymnast being told her beam could be good and then never using her is moot. Sounds like he was trying to encourage her (be a coach). And she just didn't get it done. The money thing is an issue but again we really don't know the whole story on that either. At this point who knows and I would not steer my kids away from Missouri based on this article.

Is there ever an instance where you give either parents or gymnasts the benefit of the doubt over a coach or team?

 

[Deleted member 14190]

Is there ever an instance where you give either parents or gymnasts the benefit of the doubt over a coach or team?

Sure but I like to get most of the facts first, or at least two sides. (Frankly I could call Shannon right now and ask him). Remember in college the list is exstensive of kids who are told they could compete and don't , so it's not even a point. the other things are issues but I would like to at least hear both sides prior to writing them off.

 

[gymmomtotwo]

I can't believe a gymnast convicted of stealing $700 from a teammate would ever be allowed back on a college gymnastics team. That would be enough for me to say no to a program and the coach who allowed it.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

I can't believe a gymnast convicted of stealing $700 from a teammate would ever be allowed back on a college gymnastics team. That would be enough for me to say no to a program and the coach who allowed it.

That would be my biggest concern , but again I would at least like I hear the full story . obviously if she just outright stole then that is a big no no . But (don't kill me here ) remember sometimes the law is black and white and often a grey area exists. In other words plenty of people have been convicted even though an agreement etc existed . Who knows rigjt now.

 

[gasrgoose]

It's hard to say guys. Kids do see things different and having both sides of course would be nice. The high dropout rate is a concern , but Kentucky also has one so who knows. Just a thought but maybe some people just don't like living in Missouri as well? I Really don't know but hate to see an article that represents one side go mainstream . The whole side story about the gymnast being told her beam could be good and then never using her is moot. Sounds like he was trying to encourage her (be a coach). And she just didn't get it done. The money thing is an issue but again we really don't know the whole story on that either. At this point who knows and I would not steer my kids away from Missouri based on this article.

This sounds like a very reasonable response. It's not popular today though. Most people paint with very broad strokes and whichever side is first or the loudest wins in public opinion. I agree I hate to see a program, coach or gymnast black balled ever. Most stories are much more complex and grey, than they are clear and black and white.

 

[thefellowsmom]

I agree there is a lot of grey area and I really wish it was easier to get real information about what it is really like inside these programs. We are just starting down the college recruiting path and I am lost and and honestly a bit scared. It does seem concerning that there seems to be a lot of disdain for this coach by his athletes, even ones who did well and competed.

I was curious and maybe I missed something but Updike said she left because she wouldn't "sign that contract" but then didn't mention anything about the contract. What kind of additional contract would he make her sign typically? Is that normal? Seems she thought it was worth it to leave rather than sign it.

 

[QueenBee]

That would be my biggest concern , but again I would at least like I hear the full story . obviously if she just outright stole then that is a big no no . But (don't kill me here ) remember sometimes the law is black and white and often a grey area exists. In other words plenty of people have been convicted even though an agreement etc existed . Who knows rigjt now.

Seems pretty clear she stole outright...I really can't imagine any reasonable explanation of why someone would give another person access to their bank account and allow the non-bank holder to overdraw the account by over $400 - especially for the purpose of paying rent on an apartment the bank account holder didn't live in. Pleading guilty also leads me to believe she was guilty in this case. Ms. Porter is just lucky she was ably to get the charges reduced to a misdemeanor, rather than the Class D felony she was originally charged with.

It seems like her excellent gymnastic career helped keep her on the team, not the possibility that she didn't steal. And that bothers me more than the idea someone was kicked off for having a decent but not outstanding beam routine. Character should count more than athletic ability.

 

[GymDad9.9]

I agree there is a lot of grey area and I really wish it was easier to get real information about what it is really like inside these programs. We are just starting down the college recruiting path and I am lost and and honestly a bit scared. It does seem concerning that there seems to be a lot of disdain for this coach by his athletes, even ones who did well and competed.

I was curious and maybe I missed something but Updike said she left because she wouldn't "sign that contract" but then didn't mention anything about the contract. What kind of additional contract would he make her sign typically? Is that normal? Seems she thought it was worth it to leave rather than sign it.

The contract outlined how many events Updike was going to compete in during the upcoming season.

 

[wallinbl]

It seems like her excellent gymnastic career helped keep her on the team, not the possibility that she didn't steal. And that bothers me more than the idea someone was kicked off for having a decent but not outstanding beam routine. Character should count more than athletic ability.

I'm generally inclined to be forgiving, even for athletes on scholarship. Make a mistake, even a significant one that's a crime, and if you're regretful or repentant, then have another chance. Does it require the forgiveness of the team? Sure, but I'd be hopeful they'd be the kind of people that can undertake that level of behavior.

We don't know, even from reading the article, what's going on. It's easy to infer that it was talent or ability, but it's also possible work ethic and attitude were behind it, and work ethic and attitude are related to results. It's curious, and it warrants further investigation, but until then, it's just something that looks fishy. I can give you a story with omitted details that makes nearly anything look fishy.

 

[QueenBee]

@wallinbl I guess we will have to disagree that the team needs to/should 'be the kind of people' who forgive someone who steals from another teammate, compounded by the theft being possible because she had access to the other gymnasts financial data due to being roommates. Talk about betrayal.

I think there can be forgiveness which doesn't make the offense consequence free. Forgiving someone does not mean they need to continue to be a teammate on a Div 1 college team. That is a privilege and being a convicted thief should throw a spanner in the works. And at Mizzou, being accused of this crime can get you dismissed from your team - if you haven't contributed...

In the same time period this was happening, a Mizzou football player was arrested for basically the same crime. He was indefinitely suspended immediately upon the arrest, and dismissed from the football team within 1 week of his arrest - they didn't even wait for a trial/conviction. The only difference I can see from the two incidents is that the gymnast in this case was a decorated contributor to the Mizzou gymnastics program and the football player (due to injury) hadn't played a single game during his athletic career at the college.

 

[coachmolly]

Clearly there are problems within the program that are concerning, but part of me wonders how much of it is the coaches and how much is a result of problems/priorities in the athletic dept. as a whole. Mizzou is new to the SEC, and I imagine the athletic dept. feels an immense amount of pressure to "catch up" to their larger, more successful SEC counterparts. So it's very possible a "win at all costs" mentality has taken over from the top down. So is it the coach who is calling the shots here? Or is it the athletic dept who desperately wants to make a name for themselves?
The fact that, when asked about reasons for their dismissal, the coach could not give concrete reasons sort of makes me question whether or not that decision was actually coming from him or if he was following orders from a higher up. It's impossible to tell with the information provided.
The situation of the girl who stole is concerning, but again, was it the coach who made the final call? Or the athletic dept? I can't imagine an AD allowing a coach reinstate an athlete who committed a crime without his/her consent.
Lots of ways to look at it, lots of details missing. It will definitely be interesting to watch this unfold and see if we get any additional information from other parties involved.

 

[ayyyrial]

I'm not that familiar with NCAA but it seems like a lot of gymnasts at a lot of different schools are recruited or walk on to a team without fully understanding that they may not get to compete regularly. These athletes are sometimes upset, feel like something was promised to them, etc. Maybe coaches don't make their expectations clear. Maybe the athletes (especially since they're probably used to being a star athlete at their home gym, and many are still teenagers to boot) don't fully listen. It's understandable that they're disappointed but not necessarily a sign of a bad program.

Issues with the school/athletics department/team not fully disciplining an athlete who was convicted of committing a crime (especially against a teammate) - those are more worrying. Coaches pushing injured athletes too much and encouraging athletes to keep their weight down excessively - these are also known issues both in J.O. and NCAA and should be addressed.

As far as athletes being removed from the team without a real explanation of why - it's hard to know whether that is a bad thing or not without context. Maybe there were prior meetings about performance or behavioral issues that the athletes chose not to bring up for this article. If they really are kicked off without warnings or an opportunity to address the problem, then that's worrying.

 

[GymDad9.9]

Clearly there are problems within the program that are concerning, but part of me wonders how much of it is the coaches and how much is a result of problems/priorities in the athletic dept. as a whole. Mizzou is new to the SEC, and I imagine the athletic dept. feels an immense amount of pressure to "catch up" to their larger, more successful SEC counterparts. So it's very possible a "win at all costs" mentality has taken over from the top down. So is it the coach who is calling the shots here? Or is it the athletic dept who desperately wants to make a name for themselves?
The fact that, when asked about reasons for their dismissal, the coach could not give concrete reasons sort of makes me question whether or not that decision was actually coming from him or if he was following orders from a higher up. It's impossible to tell with the information provided.
The situation of the girl who stole is concerning, but again, was it the coach who made the final call? Or the athletic dept? I can't imagine an AD allowing a coach reinstate an athlete who committed a crime without his/her consent.
Lots of ways to look at it, lots of details missing. It will definitely be interesting to watch this unfold and see if we get any additional information from other parties involved.

Actually, Missouri football was pretty good during 2013 and 2014. They've been awful since then. Basketball has been a different story and they have had major public failures up until now in getting a top flight (and clean) coach to run the program. They've made some poor choices with basketball over the past few years; however, they recently hired Cuonzo Martin, an East St. Louis native who left Cal-Berkely, to take over basketball so I expect some stability there going forward.

From the piece, I didn't like the full block on Updike's release to other schools; that came across as vindictive, but as I gather from reading here, it's pretty common behavior against transferring gymnasts.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Actually, Missouri football was pretty good during 2013 and 2014. They've been awful since then. Basketball has been a different story and they have had major public failures up until now in getting a top flight (and clean) coach to run the program. They've made some poor choices with basketball over the past few years; however, they recently hired Cuonzo Martin, an East St. Louis native who left Cal-Berkely, to take over basketball so I expect some stability there going forward.

From the piece, I didn't like the full block on Updike's release to other schools; that came across as vindictive, but as I gather from reading here, it's pretty common behavior against transferring gymnasts.

Isn't not allowing an athlete to immediately compete for another school fairly common across all sports? The athletes transfer to a new school and must wait a year before competing?